As it is, without establishing a basis of the New Testament church that we need for elders. And as we do, if either our brother Phillips or myself wish to make a comment, we will. Now, this is a cross between a Bible reading and a panel discussion, and that's, we have some written questions turned in already. We'll ask for others. There'll be discussion by the panel, and then we'll give opportunity. for brethren from the floor to make comments. But we do prefer a written question. If you give us a written question, we can read it up here and then it can be discussed. Now, after our brother Ford speaks, then there may be questions in your mind, you know. And if there are, my Warren Parrish is going to walk around and he'll have cards and just raise your hand, write out your question, and there's a salvation to this thing. You don't need to put your name on it. So just write out your question. Now, without any further ado, may I take just two or three moments by the way of introduction all I've ever really known is assembly fellowship I'd never been to church or chapel or some discord my life until I was a man and I trusted the Lord I was saved in a tent mission and found out that the tent mission was being run When I went into the gospel hall, I thought all churches were like this. The only thing I couldn't understand was there was no one who trotted around with a clerical collar on as they do in my country. I say that because quite often I come across men and women who when speaking of the things of the Lord and especially of a church principle, they say, well, you were brought up in this. There is a sense in which I have been brought up in it. It's all I've known. But there is also another sense in which we've had to pay, my wife and myself, a very deep cost for being there. I have two children. When my daughter was 21 years of age, she came and saw me and said, Daddy, we want to get married. And I thought she was only a girl. And I looked at her and I said, well, dear, and I didn't know what to say. I didn't know what to say. I didn't want to get rid of her. And I said, well, wait a year. And I can see her now as the tears welled up in her eyes. And she said, Daddy, I don't think you've got the right glass today. And I didn't know what to say. And I said, yes, of course I have. I'm your daddy. She looked at me and burst into tears and she said, I've never had a day. And that was right. I've been 32 years in the service of the woman. And ever since my little girl could almost know, I've hardly ever been home. My wife and myself face the fact that in the service of God, among the assemblies of God's folks, in my country especially, there was no chance of just being there. incense. After about eight, nine years of serving the Lord, I was down in Pembrokeshire in Wetwell and I was offered a Hill Park Baptist Church, the largest Baptist Church in Wetwell. And then the Baptist Church, at least an affiliated Baptist Church, and I was offered this church. There was a whole mass of the site in. And I wanted to take it. I wanted to take it because I got set up for being always in love. And I said to Mary, Mary, what are we going to do? And she looked at Mary and she said, Dad, are we where God wants us to be or are we where we want to be? And we settled down into a month of earnest Bible study as to why I was where I was and, to be perfectly honest, it was the first time I'd ever really done it. I could have given you all the answers to why I gathered with the people I did gather with. But previously, it had not really affected me that now it did. And we stayed where we were. The thing that finished me forever was the priesthood of all believers. This very year before I came over to America, I faced that same problem. I was invited by the committee in charge of the tent hall in Blackburn. though, the largest gospel mission in Great Britain to submit my application to be there to pretend it didn't take very long for me to write back and thank them for their great purpose but to say now now I've taken those two or three moments they're extremely personal things but I've taken them because I I want you to understand that I am not with the people that are known as brethren just because there are nice people to do that I am with them out of real absolute Bible conviction and it's a cost of something to be there with that in study may I please speak of what I believe to be the very broad there are many other things as you all well understand very broad principles of a new testament to it a new testament Not in any other place, and you can. Would you turn with me, please, into the great 17th chapter, 16th chapter, rather, of the Gospel of Matthew? Matthew chapter 16, we think. Three things, I said the other day, speaking somewhere, I'm not quite sure where, but I said that the 16th chapter of Matthew was into the 17th chapter. And that is absolute literature. and it is extremely profound. You see, you cannot get into the 17th chapter and climb the mountain and see the Lord's hand-figured until you stay for a while in the 15th chapter. The secrets of the Lord are with those that fear him. In the 16th chapter of Matthew, the Lord Jesus untold three secrets that he has never untold him before. He untold the secret of his church, for 18. He unfolds the secret of his cross, verse 21, and he unfolds the secret of his coming in the last verse. He's never unfolded these things before. And in verse 21, I'm sorry, verse 18 we read, and I say unto thee, that thou art Peter. And upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not. prevails against what tremendous words they are. Do you know the Lord is making a play on two? No need to take the baby out. Brother, I don't want a baby crying. I just think it says amen. No one else has. Don't you? Don't you bother about the baby now? If you can't manage it, you hand him up. I can preach him there as well. Now I think, please, I think that's essential because the church is a place for the family. Don't forget that. But so art Peter. The Lord is making a play on two Greek words as you know. He says, so art Peter, so art Petros, a piece of rock. But then he says, but upon this rock, not Petros, but Petros. Upon this mass of rock, I will build my church. He's not saying he'll build his church on Peter. He's saying he's built his church on this matter. wrong. No need for me to remind you of one Christian's advice. The tremendous words of the 11th verse of the third chapter. Are there foundations and no man lay than that which is lay? Christ Jesus. Christ Jesus. So here you see the very principle of the Christian church. It's based upon the Lord. Its foundation is Christ. So please, this is the church universal. And there's a difference between the church universal and the church level. The church universal includes every born-of-the-gain child of God, and I want you to understand that if you love the Lord Jesus, and yet you don't gather just the same as I gather, you are my brother, you are my sister in Christ, and you are as much in the church as I'm in the church. But I don't think you're in the local church. You see, I believe there is a local expression of a universal church. That local expression, the church at Thessalonica, the church at Corinth, the church at Philippa, the church at, and of that church there are commandments given which tell us that there are certain people who are not walking orderly who can be put out of fellowship of that church. But you can't be put out of fellowship of the body of Christ. You can't be put out of church of the fellowship of the universal church if you can't alone. Now, what are the marks of a local church? I gave her a series last week, I should talk, but I thought, let me try and change it. Let me say that as I open my Bible and read it and ponder its truth, it seems to me that, first of all, a local church is a place where the preeminence of Christ is acknowledged. The preeminence of Christ is acknowledged. When I turn to the glorious words of Ephesians 1 and 22, I go way under the Colossians in an 18th verse of the first chapter. I see that Christ is the head of the church. I see that in this church he will have the preeminence. How important it is for us to remember that. Brethren, sisters, I want to gather in a church where the center, where the gathering point is Jesus Christ. When I first was converted, I used to hear It seemed to me, of course, of course, no, but it seemed to me every time I heard any brethren minister, I used to hear these dear brethren speak of Christ as the one to whom we gather. I do not miss here that day. Maybe I ought to say it a little more. But I know of no centre for a local church but Jesus Christ. He is the preeminent one. He is the head of the church. And I want to be in a company of popes that does not acknowledge at its head a committee and some far-flung country or far-flung city that I want to be amongst a company of both that acknowledges his head Jesus Christ right there with them where two or three are gathered together in my name there are more in the midst of it and I don't gather to the gospel chapel and I don't gather to the gospel hall and I gather to Jesus Christ where he was entered the church where quite discreetly eminent was but not only where the preeminence of Christ is acknowledged, but where the presidency of the Holy Spirit is acknowledged. The presidency of the Holy Spirit. You see, I believe there have been great difficulties over the years. There have been difficulties when the church historically had problems concerning God the Father. And then they had problems concerning God the Son. Seems to me they're having problems today concerning God the Holy Spirit. But when I gather in church capacity, I want to gather where the Spirit of God is at liberty to lay on the heart of any brother in that gathering to what he wants me to know. And to the led of the church, wasn't it a glorious thing, Lord's Day morning to be here around the table, just to feel as one brother or another, did you not feel it, that the Lord was really leading us? There were none of these brethren who got together before the meeting and sort of said, now what are you going to take, brother? I'd like to follow that. that not only in the morning meeting the presidency of the Holy Spirit and the whole affairs of the church but then I believe a local church is not only a place where the preeminence of Christ is acknowledged and where the presidency of the Holy Spirit is acknowledged but where the priesthood of every believer is acknowledged and this to me is the dear, dear, the priesthood of every group and brethren that there may open up discussion later on don't let us forget this, that you sister of the Holy Priest as well as each other. Maybe call as Old Testament priest were to different offices. But is it wonderful that I don't need a man to stand between me and God? Is it wonderful to know this, that every believer is a priest when Peter writes his lovely letter, you remember? He says, speaking of Peter and Apollo, he doesn't say, we are a holy priesthood he says ye are a holy priesthood ye are i want to acknowledge the priesthood of every believer and i want to say something you've read and do you go on have a go at this i want to say something don't you sell your priesthood i don't mean sell it by allowing someone else to do it that's telling it, why not use it? I sometimes am a hymn book for lovely things, but this isn't one but a hymn book for lovely things. But don't you forget this. There's God's more concern with the praise that springs from your heart, your audible prayer that he is, even of a hymn that's been written years ago. And I find over here that you come to your chapel with two bulls, a little black one and a big black one. And you use your little black one more than a big black one. than you do your big black one. Oh, I got that in, did not. The priesthood of every believer. I believe the local church is not only a place where the preeminence of Christ is acknowledged, where the presidency of the Holy Spirit is acknowledged, where the priesthood of every believer is acknowledged, but where the principle of separation is acknowledged. The principle of separation is acknowledged. When that's only one and not, They can, to God, and I go, finish with that. What can I say of the tremendous words that 2 Corinthians 6 and 17 come the eight on the one month and be each separate? I believe that a local church is the place where the principle of separation is acknowledged, where the prominence of the scriptures is acknowledged, where what we do is not what is expedient, but what, say it, the scripture and then like the wall I believe that a local church is the place where the position of elders are mentioned it's only cut to the trace your appreciation and a drink on the ground and a week ago and a week ago and so brethren these are the things I believe that I want to hold on these are the things that is possible my life and I'm not going to give them praise I believe they are precious God give us a deep appreciation if I took longer than I should I'm not a bit sorry what you have said brother Ford is not only what you believe is what the word of God teaches my experience would be very brief as I make a comment that's a little bit different from yours someone asked the young man I'm in the same position how long he was associated the assemblies. And I have to give the same answer. Nine months before I was born. My mother and father were in the assemblies before me, my wife's people. So we were brought up there. And I've had people talk it back to me. Well, you're where you are because you were born there and you're brought up in that. No. About the age of 17 and a half, I was obliged to leave home and bored away from home. God rooted me and grounded in these things because of godly elders. And I can still remember them. I'll just give you one little about 18, going to the table. In those days we went to the table and gave thanks to the emeralds. And a dear brother, a nice little white goat, he came and put his arm around me after him. He was here streaming down his face. This is what he said. And their words of encouragement. Brother Fred, I'm sure you're the brother of the Lord and one at the table this morning. That's the kind of elder he wants. He can put his arm around someone and encourage them and help them. I was at one church that I would like to have been in. It isn't Clemsboro. It isn't Durham. It isn't Kenmore. I would like to have been in the church Antioch, the Holy Ghost says, I'd like to be in a church where the Holy Ghost is free to speak. Speak to his people from his word, whether it's from elders or someone else. I don't know whether you'd like to make a brief comment or whether you want to pass. What shall the man say that cometh not to the king? There's the king. I'm only the president. There's the king. Well, Brother Fred, like yourself, I was brought up in the assemblies I was carried there as a baby. And as far as the ecclesiastical fellowship is concerned, it's the only thing I've ever known. But I have been in a broader communion, in a sense, for 11 years. I was on the staff of the Moody Bible Institute in Chicago, and there we were joined together in gospel fellowships with the whole spectrum of the Christian church. But that's the church universal. That is the expression of the oneness of the Bible. body. As far as the local fellowship is concerned, it is my firm belief that it's the local assembly that gives the best expression to a New Testament fellowship. In just carrying what Brother Sam said one step further, in chapter 16 of Matthew we have the very first mention of the church in the New Testament. And it's mentioned, of course, by the Lord Jesus Christ himself. It's the church universal. And then you have that experience on the mount. But in the next chapter, in chapter 18, you've got the second mention of the church in the New Testament. And that also is the Lord's revelation of the church. And in Matthew chapter 18, you don't have the universal church. You have the local church. There are three things in that chapter which are of some interest in connection with this second mention of the church. In the opening verses, verses 1-10, We have the reception of the believer, except he converted and become as little children. He shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as his little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven, and whoso shall receive one such little child in my name, receive it me. That's the first great truth. connected with the local assembly is the reception of the believer then in verses 11 through 14 you have the restoration of a backslider the son of man has come to seek and to save that which is lost I'll think he if a man have a hundred sheep and one of them be gone astray then the rest of the chapter from verse 15 you have the reconciliation of brethren if thy brother shall trespass against thee and so on. It's in this immediate context that the Lord gives us the second great reference to the church. Matthew chapter 16 is expounded in the epistle to the Ephesians and Matthew chapter 18 is expounded in the first epistle to the Corinthians. So we have the universal church and the local church. And of course it's where the local church has further stand as intimated that we're concerned this afternoon. We do have certain gifts due enough that the risen head gave, and when he ascended on high, he gave, and I heard someone say, they gave gifts to the church. That's what one of the religious groups says. He gave gifts to men for the blessing of the church. There are the evangelists, and there are the pastors, and there are the teachers, but there are the elders. Now, are they a distinct company? Are they just not known at all? Were they a distinct company in apostolic days? and in the early church could you tell who they were don't be timid oh act 20 is quite clear about that over whom the Holy Spirit has made you overseers you remember that the apostle had come to Melitus and he sent to the elders of the church in Ephesus he knew where they were they knew who they were he sent all them and they came you'll remember of course that when they made the collection for the saints they sent it to the elders to Jerusalem. They knew who they were. They knew where they were. They sent them money. They received it. Or there's a definite acknowledgement of who elders are. And addressing the church at Philippi here, addressed them, including those who are the bishops or who are the elders. Now, maybe we all took the part of the usual comment about that that we were stressed. Yes. Go ahead. I think you were going to hear it. do let us remember that the word bishop and elder is the same word and when the apostle writes to the church at Philippi he writes to the elders, plural, not one bishop over many churches but many bishops in one church now let's forget that, it's a very simple principle but it's a tremendous principle, many, many please many bishops in one church, not one bishop over many churches Now, what is, one of the subjects we want to discuss this afternoon, what is the work of an elder? A number of facets to his work. Or God? Yes. Yes. Does that come first, Grant, or the character and the qualifications of an elder? We were pulling a switch this week, and we should have told you. Last week, just to make a difference because some were here, last week we did take that up first and we thought today we would take this up and then come back to it with your permission. Come back to it. Come back with me. Come back to the qualification. John, that little outline you've got on a bishop in your book, I'm not selling the thing, but that little outline you've got on Titus is one of the nicest I've seen. Does anybody have a copy of exploring the scriptures here? How do you do it from our shore usually? They're in the bookstore. I know him well enough. But it is your house, please. Maybe you want to share that for us, sir. I don't carry the run in my head, so... Have you forgotten what you wrote? Come on. I still don't know. Sorry. Well, there we are. That's one of the best that John wrote on Titus, a little outline on a bishop. Go ahead. I don't mind if you preach my own. Amen. I'm good at prayer. That one I always do. Maybe we ought to turn to the mic and say, wait. And we're on you, don't you? No, go ahead, sir. I really don't carry all these out. No, what a pressure. You know, the first thing I've got to do is find Titus. He's jumped out of my Bible. Isn't that awful? Timothy. It's on page 1,283. Oh. When speaking of an elder, the Apostle says a number of things. Where do we start? Sure, no, no, I've got to jump out of my Bible. Yes, I'm looking in check. No wonder I couldn't find it. I'm looking in chapter 2. You don't do things like that, do you? You don't do things like that, do you? First chapter, if you please. He says, for this cause I let thee entreat and thou shalt have said in order things that are wanting and ordain all elders in every city as I had appointed thee. If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children, not accused of riot or unruly, for a bishop and elder must be blameless, as the steward of God, not without will, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre, but a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy temperate, holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exalt us, to convince the game-players, for there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, especially they of the circumcision. I think you pointed out, John, that first of all, he had to be a faithful man, He had to be a family-led man. He had to be a, what did you have for? Faithful man, a family man. Go on, what did you have for fellowship in the home? You buy the book. That's the idea. Yeah. Go on, what did you have? I can't remember, sir. It's a long time to develop. Well, let's take the work of the elder. Let's take the work of the elder. You've just read there that he must be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convince the gains there. And in writing to Timothy, he said he must be apt to teach. Now, where is the elders' fear of ministry in connection with its teaching and connection with its exhorting? Is it public? Is it private? Is it both? Where is it? Before you answer it, there's a tremendous need today for the instruction of the people of God and the Word of God. And you cannot leave it to Philipson Board. and Morgan and the rest of them. It's got to be done on the local level, and it hasn't been done on the local level. Now, do you care to expound a little on the sphere of the elders' work? Well, he first of all has to be asked to teach. I can't express strong enough that if experience goes for anything, and I think it does a little, that this does not necessarily mean asked to preach. I come across quite a number of folk who imagine that because a person is an elder, therefore he's got to preach. Now this is not true, but he's got to be able to teach. He's got to be able to go into a home and speak with those that come to him and expand to them, explain to them the word of God. Now I come across a number of people in the course of my travel who are wonderful elders. They're very apt to teach, but they're not apt to preach. not after preach so I think the purpose here the work of an elder is that he must be a man who is able in the assembly fellowship to teach the people in that fellowship the word of God that's the first what's the difference between teaching and admonishing we just read of admonishing here there is a difference is it teaching setting forth the positive truth of the word of God error comes in or people get out of line as far as their conduct and they must be admonished they must be warned and maybe most of you aren't aware of it but today in evangelical circles as well as in the assemblies are truths creeping in you may say well he means charismatic well that's only part of it that's only part of it things in connection with the person of Christ, the work of Christ, right down the line. And I think we need more and more good, solid teaching from the Word of God so that when someone comes along. Now there's an article written not too long ago, and I won't tell you where it was, but it was all wrong from this particular magazine. One of our magazines. And a young man had only been saved two years, came one night for a little Bible study. He said, there's nothing in here. Now don't tell me that a babe in Christ can't be protected if he reads his Bible. God will protect him. And that's not a spot of this. was absolutely right. Things said about the person of Christ were dead wrong. He said, this can't be right, and he was right. There's a great need to instruct, and there's a great need to warn. Don't always be taken up by all the heresies of the cults and all the rest. You never have time for the truth of God. So I think there's a great ministry that's needed here. The brother came into our assembly and made this statement, a brother from the mission field. We won't identify him. And he said this. From that time forth, to his disciples that he must be crucified. It was then that he became aware of the fact that he was to die on the cross. You can't have that. And I'm glad that the elders stepped in. And you must step in. Any word from you, brethren, on this teaching and admonishing? Any further words? Well, it presupposes a thorough knowledge of the Bible. Amen. And amongst us today there are an increasingly few men with this thorough knowledge of the Bible. You don't get a thorough knowledge of the Bible by all of a sudden when you retire from business deciding you're going to get it. I remember years ago brother RJ Little from, he was in fellowship in the Chicago assemblies. He was the radio pastor of Moody Bible Institute for many, many years. to a brother who said to him I wish I had your knowledge of the word he looked at him and he said you're too late he said you'll never have my knowledge of the word of God sir he said if you wanted my knowledge of the word of God you should have started 20 years ago but it's never too late to start and if we want to be able to admonish and to deal with error and to teach people the truth of the word of God we've got to know it ourselves. And that takes time. And it takes time consistently spent in the Bible over a long period of time. And it's certainly a goal that we should all be going in for. It's one of the basic works of an elder is to be able to take the book and expound somebody comes to us and says a Mormon was at my house this afternoon and he said this and this and this are we able to give an answer we should be if you have any comment if you'll raise your hand we'll try and answer it as we go along brother Ford in Hebrews 13 that says that they are to have the rule. Does that mean dictation? Oh, an elder is not a dictator. He rules his own house. Take care of the church, the Bible says. Take care. But God has set men over us and we accept the deliberation of those, not in the singular, but in the plural, of those that he has set over. In many things, if experience goes anywhere, in many things I have found this, elders sit down to deliberate on a particular matter they have before them the entire story normally speaking when a matter arises it's only one side that one person hears but the elders sit down and they have the whole story and the care and the fellowship of the church of God that we have indeed younger men have to submit themselves to those that are older and to the elders of the church and I think that this is a correct procedure and a right procedure and a procedure that we don't teach enough and we don't practice enough. But it's not a dictator in the church, one man. This is why God has said elder, it's not an elder. This is why it's in the plural, not in the singular. Isn't the great thought behind being an elder the thought of being a shepherd? And it's interesting that God kings in the Old Testament were shepherd kings. God's ideal king was David. His ideal ruler was a man like David. And again and again the various kings in the history of the Old Testament are compared with the gold standard. It says he did this as did David his father, or not as David did. David is set up the standard of God's ideal came and David was a shepherd. The difference between David and King Saul, King Saul looked after his father's ashes and he couldn't even look after them. He lost them when he first introduced. He can't even find them. That's the heart of Saul. You drive an axe, but you lead a sheep. And it came out in Saul's character as a king and in David's character as a king, David was a shepherd. And that's what God taught is behind rules. whether it's in the kingdom of Israel in the Old Testament or in the local church in the New Testament the idea of being a shepherd and if we would get into our Bibles and find out something of shepherding then we would have the whole idea of being an elder it means having a heart for the flock it means being ready to stand between the flock and the wolf it means spending many a sleepless night out on the hills somewhere looking after one that's gone astray being a shepherd is being an elf I think that 17th verse of the 13th chapter says obey them that have the rule over you and submit yourselves for they watch for your soul as they must give an account that they may do it with joy and not with grief for that is unprofitable for you so you see it's not ruling from the sense of a dictator but watching for them and caring for their souls. We had a good brother came to our fellowship and gave a series of slides on a trip that he'd made to Palestine. And I never get one little story he told you may have heard others tell it, but I heard it and tell it. But as they were going along, they saw a flock of sheep being driven. And he goes to the man and he speaks to him and he said, the shepherd, leave the sheep in Palestine. The man looked at him and said, yes, but I'm not the shepherd, I'm the swarter man. That's the difference. One was driving, and he was driving to the slaughterhouse. The shepherd was leading, and he was leading the pasture. In connection with what our brother Phillips has said as to David, my very sweet comment I read in connection with David is really in connection with Samuel. Samuel had a great ministry, did he not? And Samuel's ministry, Samuel's greatest ministry, I believe, is a ministry, one of the ministries of an elder. Someone said that Samuel's greatest ministry was to introduce to the nation the man who, after God's own heart. And an elder has that type of ministry. It's the ministry of Christ, the person of Christ, the work of Christ. This is what fills up God's people. You made a comment about the elders meeting together, Brother Ford. I had a question handed here, should the elders meet together or should they carry on their work individually? I know it answers itself, but here's the next question, it's been asked two or three times on the ground. If one of a group of elders is not doing any of the work of an elder, what should be the attitude and action, if any, on the part of the other elders? Shall I read it again? This was asked last week and again this week. If one of the group of elders is not doing any of the work of an elder, what should be action, if any, on the part of the other elders, and this is a serious thing. It is true that there are men that have been listed as elders, shall we say. This is told us last week, and he isn't doing the work anymore. Now, what's to be done about it, if anything? The first thing I think that we think considering this is that one of the works of an elder is to admonish. And it's interesting that the question was put it very nicely. I thought extremely nicely. Whoever put that question in, thank you. Thank you for the knife where put it in. What should the other elders do? Well, if the work of an elder is to admonish the flock, I would have thought that the work of an elder was to admonish an elder that's not doing the work. And I would think that it would come from the elders. I think that was put so nicely, you know, Jenny, that's all the question is, what shall we do? What shall they do? Well, I think you laid the basis for it, though, in elders meeting together. And there must be mutual confidence, mutual trust, mutual fellowship. And if one brother isn't carrying the load, so to speak, isn't doing the work, he's just there in name. They should admonish him. And if that's the story, brother, it wouldn't be well for you to step aside for the time being. Now, you may say that's strong language. Who are they to do it? Well, if he isn't doing the work, he's only a hindrance. He's not any help at all. Is that too strong? I don't think it's too strong. Last week, the last day, I came to the that during the course of the week we might have been giving a little wrong impression. We were working, dealing so much with the work of elders that I was a little nervous that at the end of the week we might have given the impression that the elders were the head of the church. Now, brethren and sisters, don't let us forget this, the elders are not the head of the church. Christ is the head of the church. Christ is the head of the church. And if Christ is the head of the church, the head controls the whole body. Is that true? If there are things that happen among elders that we feel in the church of God, maybe shouldn't be so, and let's make sure that we are scripturally correct in this matter, then we have a remedy. I said this, that I believe there are too many of us, and I'm not just trying to be funny, but I think there are too many of us who wear our trousers out. in the wrong place if we got on our knees a little bit more than sat down if we told the Lord a little more of it and he's the head of the church and he's concerned with the body and the Lord knows whether we are being fed I've seen many an hour of trade away from the fellowship of elders at Corinth they were told to take an action who did Paul tell to take that action? I'm not disputing what you said about Christ being the head of the church, but who did he say was to take that action? To whom was it addressed? The elders of the whole church. Had he not addressed the church of God at Corinth and said, put away from among yourselves? Now the elders might have carried it out. The elders are only really acting on behalf of the others under the direction of the head. They're no superior group. They have no superior authority. leaders, they're to show the way, they're to shepherd, they're to feed, it's a tremendous job. I think in the sense of the Corinthian Epistle that the instruction also was in the church. In other words, if elders disciplined by putting out a fellowship, the church not only accepts that discipline but also practices that discipline. Well, here's one that sits apart from the regular. Brother Ford would have answered, I'm sure. I'm feeling I'm doing all the talking. Come on, John. No, no, no. If an elder is asked now to officiate at the wedding of two unsaved people, should he do so? Oh, did you answer that? Oh, yes. Yes. Oh, most definitely. Oh, most definitely. Marriage was not given to the church. Now, would you noticeably... Two unsaved people. Not an unsaved person and a saved person. Two unsaved persons. Marriage was not given to the church. Marriage was given to the world. And it is of God that men and women shall be legally married. And I have appreciated at a number of weddings where neither of them are saved, but I tell you something, before they have had that not tie, know how to be saved. And I tell you something more, that again and again I have seen that those folk, maybe they never came to the Gospel Hall before, that where they were married. And there's a link. When I go and knock the door, there's a link. Oh yeah. I'm not speaking please of unequal yet. I am speaking of two unconverted people here. And marriage is a God. Marriage is a God. rather enjoyed the statement of your president when he said to some of the folks who are working wherever they were go and get yourselves married I'm sure you will understand that we are not trying to decide all issues having said that I say a big amen to what my brother Ford has said I felt free to do exactly that thing in that particular connection. We're not here to settle issues. We're here to unfold the Word of God, and you've got to apply it in your own local conditions and your own local circumstances. Can we go another direction? Here's a question that has been written out. What is the scriptural procedure for becoming an elder in a local assembly? Doesn't Paul tell the Ephesian church concerning the elders that the Holy Spirit made them elders? Whom the Holy Ghost has made you all the seers to feed the Church of God. I wouldn't say personally there was a procedure for becoming an elder. The thing to do is that the Holy Spirit has given you a burden for shepherding the flock is the shepherd the flock and the recognition will come what is I would say I don't know but I would think behind the question is the thought may be that there are some that have felt that it would be the proper thing to vote in elders for the assembly to to sort of gather together and then the assembly vote on who was going to be your elders there's one sure thing that that is completely unscriptural. The twenty other acts to which one has already made reference tell us take heed therefore unto yourselves and to all the flock over which the Holy Ghost has made you out. The usual procedure, now you ask for a scriptural procedure, and this is, I'm not quite sure what you have in mind, you know. In the early church there was a procedure, a scriptural procedure, the apostle as an apostle as an apostle gave instructions gave instructions for instance to Titus to go and make elders so there was then in that day a scriptural making of an elder procedure for the making of an elder Titus would move in and as a man of God would notice men who had these qualifications and report them out I don't believe we have apostles today I believe the Holy Ghost points out men in a very real way in a very practical way but I do believe also that the principle that lies behind it is a real one in most assemblies there would be a company of elders maybe one of the brethren would leave the district maybe one would pass away maybe the elders meeting itself would grow to such an extent that there was a need for a larger number to do the work of elders. I believe that those elders themselves, they are qualified men. They are godly men. They are men with the knowledge of the Bible. They are the men most suitable to see others that have likeness. And I believe that those elders are taking the example of Titus, pointing out, right man gaining elders, pointing them out. Men that were able, I believe those elders would naturally, being the spiritual men of the assembly, be able to point out others that are spiritual, to help in their work. We asked a question last week, and I'd just like to ask it again. Is there anything in Scripture to stop a concerned brother, an exercised brother, from doing the work that an elder does? Is it true saying, if any man desires or aspires to the work of a bishop, he aspires to a good work. Now, as a brother in the assembly, he aspires to this work within his own soul and before God, and he starts to do the work. Is there anything that would forbid him to do that? Would it be stepping on the toes of somebody? Would it be out of bounds? I would say most definitely not. There's nothing to stop a man doing the work of an overseer. As long as he doesn't get puffed up. You remember the epistle of the Corinthians, fourth chapter? That you may not be puffed up. The difficulty is that there are so many folk who want the office of a bishop that they don't want the work of a bishop. You know, there's so many folk who like to be looked upon as one of the leaders of the fellowship. But it is, as John has so wonderfully pointed out, the work of a shepherd. And if you know anything about sheep, and please I come from the county where they grow sheep. We got sheep, not those old mummisher things you have in your way. But this I do know that the work of a shepherd's hard work. It's all what you can rest assured. If it's pouring rain, that's the time that you are drummer land. If it snows on the ground, that's the time that you can rest assured it'll be Sunday morning when you want to go to the meeting. So you or drop her land. You need to be going out there, caring for the sheep, and the most... I was going to use the term on earthly times. It was shepherds. Whether it's going to cost us sleep, it's going to cost us time, it's going to cost us money, it's going to cost us work, it's going to cost us... But to be worth it all when we hear it say, well done. Well done. Well, do the work. But don't get puffed up until that you walk the office. You know, a desire of good work. Yes, and it isn't an office here. It is a good work, and I didn't have any thought in mind of some upstart coming along and saying, well, they're not doing it the way it should be done. But there's many a burdened soul that feels maybe I'm not just up there, but there's nothing to stop it from quietly going on and encouraging and feeding and helping God's people. And when he does that, I'm thinking of a case right among ourselves. There's a young man, and he's, I say young because where I am. He's in his early 40s. And he's doing that work right along. We're encouraging him. Now, how can you encourage? I think this was a good step forward. How can you encourage other brethren in connection with this work? You said it's the men that are passing off the scene and men move away? How do we, how is this to be planted? You say the Holy Ghost makes them, and how is it done practically among ourselves? Do you know one of the first things? I think it's about time we started saying thank you. think that's one of the first things. We are so apt to be critical when we think things are not going well. We're not apt to say thank you when things are going a long way. And I think there's nothing in the world that will encourage a brother, like the realization that those that he's been seeking to help appreciate, that he's seeking to help them. And I still think it's a good thing to see. Read again. Let the redeemed of the Lord I know one assembly where the elders meet with a group of young men regularly. Once a month or every two months, it just depends. And they're not training them to be elders. You can't do that. But they're trying to encourage them. And then if the encouragement works out so that they aspire to this work and they get involved in it, then they would be invited later on. But the idea is to try and encourage them by working together of the young and the old. and brethren and sisters let's stop this division let's stop the separation between young and old alike in the days of Josiah the old and the young were working together the young king and the older men they worked together that's why they had times of great blessing I think that we should be a great encouragement to the young men and they should desire they should be willing they should want to come to those who are older because of our attitude towards them isn't it what Paul did you know you're in Acts chapter 20, that there accompanied him into Asia, so Peter of the rear, and of the Thessalonians, Aristarchus, and Secundus, and Gaius of Derby, and Timotheus, and of Asia, Titicus, and Trofimus, he had a whole bunch of satellites revolving around him in orbit where he went. And he used these young men, he sent them on his errands, he entrusted them with task under his supervision. And he was always attracting young men to himself and training them, discipling them, teaching them, living the life before them. I think it's very interesting that connection that Timothy is a very interesting case. He was with Paul right along in Acts 16. He was well reported out by the brethren in two localities. He had already been doing a work for God. Paul said, I want him. with him I like Paul's testimony to Timothy later on actually accompanied with him for a while and done these errands and been serving the Lord you remember what he said in Philippians 2 I have no man like-minded who will naturally care for your state all men seek their own not Timothy he seeks the things of Jesus Christ now this is what happens when an older man and a younger man can work together in the things of God and it does not always depend on the young man Sometimes the older man is not steadfast, he's stuck fast, and there's no yielding at all. But I think after people have said all they want about the Apostle Paul, I think he was a gracious man. I think he was kindly, and he encouraged Timothy in a wonderful, wonderful way. I would like that testimony to be said of me. I have no man like-minded, and this is the work of a shepherd who will naturally care for your sake. You're going to say something. little observation that so often is passed, but I think it's a very good one. And don't let also forget that in the Church of God, if it's a flock, the sheep and the land feed together. There is a great tendency in the world today for this age gap to work even in the fellowship. I saw, I can mention it, because you don't know the fellowship, but I was in a fellowship in Australia where there were two fellowships in the one hall. I spoke to the president about it. I couldn't have it, and I went on the young boat, but there were two fellowships in one hall. The only time they met was at the breaking of prayer. The young people had their own Bible reading. Ah, yes, well, you see, young folk like to put it in a different way than the old folks, where they had a young people's Bible reading. young people had a prayer meeting, young people had a gospel meeting, you know, they brought it around to church rallies, and the older folk, they came out to the conversational Bible reading and a ministry meeting, and there are lots of things to be said, oh, there's so much study to do, they can't get out of the evenings, they just gather at times when they can, but there is, in that particular, building two fellowships, and I think that's not going to evolve, but there must be the giving for the elders, if our meetings are people can't get asked, well, then we've got to sit down and say, maybe our time could be changed a little. If our ministry is such that young folks somehow just don't get anything, well, we've got to set down your shepherds, brethren, for shepherds. I said this in the week, and I'd like to repeat it, and then be quiet. I was speaking in El Croco. I'd be waxing very eloquent on the responsibility of the elders to lead the flock. I've been preaching on the 144th psalm, my favorite psalm, that your darners may be full, a 40-year-old manor of snore, moved here in the eyewatch, eloquent, grand grand. And I was walking up over the hill with a dear old elder, Mr. Stephen. And he put his arm on my shoulder, and he said, Bernard Porter, I know, I know we've a responsibility to feed the sheep. But what do you do when the sheep don't want to be fed? don't let's forget there are two sides to it there's not only the elder side there's the flock side and if the food's available we'll achieve it our time is almost gone is there someone that would like to raise a question or comment from the floor any brother yes i'd like to hear from Well, George, he mentioned what your ask would be in marrying two unsaved people. I told you we were going to ask this. But I was interested in your comment or your emphasis on the fact that those are two unsaved and not unequally killed. And my question was, what would your ask to be if they were unequally killed? I would thank God that I'm not an elder, and I would pass it over to the elders. Sir, you cannot get off that easy. What would you do? Yes, I can't get off that very easy because of this leg, see? That's why. In my country, in England, not Scotland, but in England, it isn't the man who's registered. It's the building that's registered. I could stop a road sweeper and bring him in. me to marry me. Any person could come in and marry another person. It is the building that's registered and on demand. That's all I can, doctor, do you see? Because they'll only decide if you're prepared to marry you, but the elder said, no, we don't have that wedding in this place. So is their responsibility. But sir, you are an elder, and you're not going to step on the house.