Gibson, Jean: Seattle Shepherds Renewal Conference 1977-05 ~ Pastoral Visitation

This tape continues with the soundtrack from a videotape cassette shown at the session on pastoral visitation. Notice in verse thirty six, his readiness then to obey Jesus and follow his lead. He says, and he worshiped him. Does this not suggest to us that having healed him of the malady of blindness, that Jesus invited him to receive him then and there as the Son of God. That thou believes in the Son of God, and he said, who is he, Lord, that I might believe in him? You tell me who to believe in, and I'll believe in him. And he falls down, and he worships him. Let me tell you, this is a classic invitation. He invited this man to come to the Son of God. The questions of Jesus. How we would do well to ponder the method of the Master himself as we go to talk to others in his behalf. Our Father, tonight we thank you for the example of the Lord Jesus Christ. We ask you, Lord, that we forego in the same wisdom and the power that he went, and that thou will give us the wisdom of the Holy Spirit, that we might ask the kinds of questions that Jesus asked. We pray in his precious name, amen. You never really studied it that way before, did you? Huh? That's a whole dimension to Christ that you never thought of. Isn't that great? Oh, I'll tell you, we can learn from him, can't we? Well, if we go out there and ask those kinds of questions, but how to do it? You got to think about it, don't you? Think about it. Makes us very thoughtful in the things that we say to other people. All right, now let's see, having had this introduction, have you learned anything? All right, go over, take the next sheet over, turn it over, and we're going to take a time here, and you look through these sample questions. Here's some more questions of Jesus. Let's see if you can classify them. Let's practice on what you've learned. We'll give you a little period of time here in the workshop to do this, all right? Let's talk about our question. You see now the purpose of this is, uh, to test our ability to ply, apply both. Okay. Question. Peter, John twenty one fifteen, lovest thou me more than thee? What is the purpose of, uh, this question, by the way? Okay, why do you say that? See? See? All right, you think that it would test his commitment to the Lord Jesus? Think also that it might prick his conscience? How about testing his faith too, to the quality of his faith? Huh? You love me more than you love these? It's very important that, that our faith be tested, you know. Isn't God always testing our faith? What kind of faith you got? Some of us don't have enough faith in God to even live for God in the present life. We don't have that kind of faith. And if we got weak faith, we got big problems in our Christian life, don't we? You can't be weaker in a workplace or weak in a workplace than to be weak in faith, and the devil knows that, doesn't he? In dealing with people and their problems, you're very concerned about the quality of their faith, the object of their faith. All questions ultimately will get bound to a faith basis, won't they? Sure would. Mm-hmm. He didn't mind shaking a man up, did he? We don't like to shake him up. He shook him up. Yeah. Okay. Well, we're not there to do the work of the Holy Spirit, but we're there to be used by the Holy Spirit to help a pe- people think about something, where they are, why they're there, what they want to do about it. I usually, you know, tell the people that we're trying to train, I said, there are really three things you want to know about anybody, young or old. First thing is, as they see it, where are they? As they see it, where are they? The second, what do they want to do about it? And the third is, how can we help? You know the answer to those three? It's basically the, the answer to the first question might shut off the rest. If the answer to the second question is not much, then we don't have to worry about the third. Really simplifies things. Can't help people who don't want to be helped. That's basic, isn't it? No possibility of doing that. All right, let's look at, uh, John eight forty six. The Lord says, um, in the area to his critics, which of you convinces me or convicteth me of sin? Why do you not believe me? What are you trying to do? Source of deliverance, trying to point to himself. He's inviting them to acceptance. Trying to convict them. What way would he have convicted them by that question? When he said, why you, why, uh, what did you think of him as sin, and they, and they... Why were they, why didn't they believe him? They couldn't point to any sin in him. Had to be pretty convicted. They couldn't point to a sin in him. He knew it. Now he says, if that's true, why don't you believe me? Yeah, he... but it's a kind of a convicting thing. It's, they didn't have any commitment to the Lord Jesus, did they? They weren't committed to him. Yeah, he's, he's working on their conscience. Oh, I like this, and I'm a conscience preacher myself. Boy, I see this in the Lord. He, he gets after their conscience, doesn't he? Why don't you believe? All All right. right. Yeah, they reflect upon it, but when they get through reflecting upon it, John, where do they, where would they be logically? We thought about this question. Where they are. The center. Sure. The reflection, of course. There is a sense in all are kind of, uh, reflectors to make them think. He always asks questions to make them think. That's true. But sometimes in a reflector question, what you want to do is to get a person to think about something from a different perspective. See, one of the reasons that we come up to wrong conclusions is we have what's called gun barrel vision. See, as far as I'm concerned, Harold, you only got one ear. That's all I see. See? That's all you. I don't care what they say, you got one ear. Gun barrel vision. You see, if you went out and looked at it from another direction, we might see something different. We really are, are suffer from that. Okay. Uh, John eighteen and seven. whom seek ye? Whom seek ye? They're coming out to arrest him. Clarify the purpose. Clarify the purpose, sure. Uh, what was their purpose? Arrest him. What, what did he want to do in this, in this situation? What was he trying to do? Oh, but he really wanted to serve a very practical purpose. He prepared to be arrested and tried and slain, but then he says in the next verse, what does he say? Let the rest of them go. See? What's your purpose? We're coming to arrest Jesus. Okay, here I am. What about the rest? Let them go. You didn't come to arrest them. See that? Challenges of that area, see, so he clarifies what their thinking is, and he's protecting the disciples, isn't he? Let them go. Who they're listening to, yeah. Well, they had a hard time really knowing who he was at that point, particularly he might have been, uh, less obvious to them as the divine Son of God and as the conqueror and Messiah, his weakness of his arrest. But, but he he's able to centralize them on the only thing they're sent to do, which isn't arrest all of them, only Jesus. Uh, Six sixty one. He's talking about eating his flesh and drinking his blood, and the crowd doesn't like that too well. They can't understand it. Sounds terrible. And then he says, does this offend you? Does this offend you? Where are you seeing that? Well, he knew that it did. He knew that it did offend them, didn't he? Just in your faith about what? Yes, he's, you're going to separate the disciples in two groups here pretty soon. There's going to be the disciples that don't walk with him anymore and those that do, huh? They're really going to split on that because right after this, it says many of his disciples walk with him no more. I can't send out the truth. The sound variations in the tape due to the tape speed changing was recorded in the original recording and is not the fault of your recorder. Yeah. In the law that the life is in the blood. He is very happy, but this is what I have to do in my life. This is a thing. Do you think he really wants them to receive him now as, as, as the Lord, follow him here? Or is it really, is he, is he doing a little testing in here? Could be testing, it could be bringing reflection. They do kind of come together, don't they? There do a couple in there. Not ashamed, huh? Well, it was strange. I don't know if we'd have been there, we would have understood what the Lord was talking about. Eating his flesh, drinking his blood. My, what is he talking about? Before the cross now, you know, of course, we all know what he did with these dear men. Yeah, they didn't hadn't seen the cross and read Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and here the Lord's talking about eating his flesh and drinking his blood. Well, we sure are, aren't we? It came right down to it, they really couldn't fully understand it. They just had to come down, they just had to believe in him. Whatever he said, it was right, even though they didn't understand it. And that way it is in our life sometime, we don't understand it, and we just got to trust the Lord. That's something. I tell the Lord sometimes, I don't understand it. Not if you want an explanation. But I trust you. I do, I can't see it. I don't under- I don't get it, but I trust you. Oh. You trust me. Eighteen thirty four, saith thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell you? Pilate. Are you the king of the Jews? Well, is this your statement, or did someone else tell you? Almost looks like the other man's on trial, doesn't it? What did he ask that question for? He didn't say too much to Pilate, you know. Reflection. Reflection. And... He? see? You're saying that I'm the king of the Jews. What does that really mean to you? That I'm the king of the Jews. Uh, am I a Jew? I'm going to be drawn into that. He should have been because his wife warned him, didn't she? That was one time a man should have hearkened to his wife. Warned him. He always presents the challenge of his person, doesn't he? Who do you say I am? What do I mean to you? He's the central issue, isn't he? And really, it's too and cally, isn't it? Isn't Christ the central issue, this whole thing. Why do you believe me not? And the miracles, do all these miracles. Why don't you believe me? What is it? It's working on. They don't have any reason for not believing in. Truth of the matter is, disbelieving in Jesus is irrational. There's a certain madness about the God. But there's a time when we're almost there, rage shot into, just infuriated them. Trying to get something. They couldn't get anything on him. They tried to trap him in his word. They couldn't trap him in his word. Couldn't do anything with him. Was that frustrating to them? Thought about it. Almost like, uh, the Roman emperor, Julian the Apostate. You remember his horrific animosity toward the Christians, his hatred for Jesus, and then he dies in battle, and with the blood pouring out of him, he reaches inside, throws it up to heaven, and he says, Thou dost always triumph, thou Galilean. Infuriating, maddening. They're always winning. He always does, doesn't he? John twenty fifteen, Woman, why weepest thou? Whom seekest thou? Why didn't Jesus know who she was looking for. He said that, take another look. Take another look now. Who you're looking for? Now look at me. All right. That helped you think a little bit now. Hope when you look at those questions of Jesus, you start thinking about that. It'll, it'll begin to make you more analytical about everything you say. Every time you open your mouth now, you, you hope you begin to think about, you know that Jesus never wasted a word? We rattle on. He didn't waste a word. If he said something, everybody could come to the full point. What in the world is he saying that for? Pay attention. And then, as we think about it, what we say can be used of God will be just the right thing God can use. Any questions about this? Okay, this is what we do in a training session, and we pray together, and we go out and call. Yes. We spent quite a bit of time in your, in your schedule. It seems like you don't allow that much time. How do you... Well, we went longer tonight. Uh, we, this thing because I'm doing a little bit more in here, but actually we didn't really get started till about ten after. We could easily finish in forty five minutes if we could speed it up. We probably would speed the whole thing and condense it to forty minutes. Can't take too long. Of course, we've got a bigger group in here too, haven't we? Yeah. What do you do about problems? Uh, I know that you said you have ten minutes at the beginning for prearranged testimonies or probably what happened before, but Mm-hmm. What if you've got two or three, uh, teams, two guys that ran into something that they need to discuss in the group, where, where would you allot time for that? Probably, uh, group discussion and problem solving would not be done in the session. This is more to share by way of encouragement or prayer. If you really ran into a thicket, uh, we want to talk to them sometime between the weeks, go over our problem, problems. That ten-minute sharing would be primarily good things that happen to key people. Yes, or things to pray for. Yeah, not, not, not problem solving. Okay. Correct. Absolutely. Yeah. Because, uh, when you went out and struck out last week and the week before, you're getting down. Somebody all say, oh, listen to what happened last week, and I feel better. Somebody struck oil. But you can get discouraged otherwise. Okay, Jim. Tone down. When my voice was heard all over the fireside. This is transition, excuse me. What a transition. Week three. m It's often been said that the Bible is not simply a textbook, but many times we do find textbook illustrations in the scripture. Our orientation session, the speaker cited for us John chapter four, and I'd like to return to that chapter this evening for an introductory statement with reference to our topic tonight, which is transitions in visitation conversation. You see in chapter four and verse 7 that the Savior begins this entire conversation with a simple request. He said to the woman of Samaria, give me to drink. Give me to drink. He made a request, and the subject was a simple one, which is water. By verse 10 in the same conversation, he had turned the conversation, uh, to his own person, and he stimulated her curiosity. Verse ten, he said, if thou knewest the gift of God and who it is that saith to give thee, give me to drink, thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. And then by verse sixteen, he gets perhaps to a most important matter in the life of this woman. He says to her, so call thy husband. He started with an everyday subject, water. He moved to the question of his own person, and finally he spoke to the issue of her sin. This illustrates for us transitions in conversation. In all frankness, we do not find too much of this in the four gospel accounts, since it is essentially an abbreviated account that we have of the life of the Lord Jesus and many of the things that he said. But certainly this is sufficient. We might have a few others that illustrate that the Lord Jesus himself, uh, utilized this device in speaking to other people. That is, how can we move from ordinary conversation or ordinary subjects to spiritual subjects, or as we sometimes say, turning the conversation Godward. We note that in our ordinary conversations, transitions are customary. We begin usually with, um, general conversation before moving to a matter that might be more important in our thoughts. In this case, Jesus perhaps observed ordinary oriental courtesy when he made a simple request, give me to drink. We note also that transitions are helpful. If the Lord Jesus had started, for example, with the question, who is your husband? That would have been a little abrupt, wouldn't it? And transitions are also necessary. We have to recognize that with him, as with us, time is limited, and eternal issues are at stake. We want to be able to turn the conversation Godward without too much extended period of time on ordinary subjects of chit-chat. Transitions keep us from talking in circles, with endless delay in getting down to the main subject. They prevent us from having to be abrupt with people, and they do not waste eternal opportunities. Transitions. They are moves to enter into serious spiritual exchange. They imply purpose, they imply expectancy, they imply a taking of initiative on our part. The first key in transitions is to listen closely to the conversation. We have an illustration of this in Mark chapter nine verses thirty three and thirty four. In this case, Jesus listened to the conversation between his disciples, and they were arguing about the presence of the new grace in the kingdom. The spiritual problem then might be described as the big cheese syndrome. Who is going to be the big cheese in the kingdom of God? The Lord Jesus listened closely to what they were saying, and then asked this question: What were you disputing about? What were you disputing about? By listening to what they said, he utilized it as an opportunity to give them a few thoughts on the subject of servanthood and lowliness. What we s- what people say is often very revealing. By listening closely to what is said, we are far more apt to notice opportunities to make a transition. We can't simply be in a kind of a mental neutral. It seems to me that when we converse with people about the Lord Jesus Christ, it's required that we be mentally alert. We can't be tired or worn out or jaded or half asleep when we're carrying on a meaningful conversation. It requires intense concentration. The subject itself may be ordinary in some way, but we're looking for an opportunity. So listen closely. Then we are, of course, there to seek an opportunity to get the important or eternal issues. This may be, for example, a pause in the conversation. This is the old thing that we cleaned up for some reason or another. It might be alert, so that is an opportunity. Perhaps we have completed, or they have concluded a certain conversational topic. This is not the one. They may have discussed something about their epithets. Yeah. Or this. Uh, Rhonda, you see we, that's all that up. We cleaned that thing up totally, and we got some or another, we got the one with a misspelled word on it and the other thing in there. Uh, so just cut it off right now. That's good enough right now. Follow your notes in there. The quality on this one isn't good. We cleaned this up. I don't know what's wrong with it. We have a different one, somehow or another we're not into it in some way or another. Right. Yeah, try Right. it. That's good enough. Look at your, uh, look at the rest of your notes here. Let's look at the rest of your notes. We covered the remaining spots. It's seeking an opportunity to get into an important discussion, involves what's called a tie-in. It doesn't matter what kind of, uh, conversation you're in, there's an opportunity for a tie-in if you're looking at it. You can talk about any... try anything from the audience. It really doesn't make any difference as an illustration. Or just make any statement about sports, just a typical sports statement. Really do. You know, it's tremendous that, uh, that you, you really have an enthusiasm for something like that. I remember when I did. But you know, there came a time in my experience, Dave, that, um... uh, I didn't find that tremendous interest in football was holding me. I found something that was of far greater interest to hold me than I'd ever had before, and that is, I found the most absorbing thing in my life was Jesus Christ and his interest. You know? Let me ask you, Dave. How do you stand personally in your life? What is your attitude toward the Lord Jesus Christ? What do we do then? I made a tie-in and a what? Transition. Move from football to Jesus. Didn't we? You don't think they're closely related, do you? Anything Anything else? else? Wow, it rains all the time around. Yeah, it really does. You know, I was up here for a camp and poor kids in high school. Every time I come back for high school camp, that's the only time it rains. You know, but you know, the rain really speaks to me spiritually. Whenever, whenever I used, rain depressed me before, but now when I think of rain, really, I think of it as symbolizing the blessing of God, because we haven't had it in California. You know, I think that's like the picture of the Holy Spirit being saturated, you know, with water. And, uh, I find the real question is whether, whether the Holy Spirit is saturating me or not, that, uh, that he's filling me. And you think of that statement, you know, that Jesus made, that out of his innermost being, the believer shall flow rivers of living water. You ever had that experience, Doug? Yeah, tell me about it. Any diff- any relationship between rain and the Holy Spirit? Well, it's not apparent unless what? You're looking for it. We want to talk about the ho- we want to talk about the Lord. What else? That, that sort of follow through there would be possibly somebody who burst into Yeah. He wouldn't do that sort of trick. No, if he was an unsaved man, I just took it that he was a Christian. Well, try it on un- talk, give me an unsaved person. Give me the same question. Yeah, tell me about the rain. You get the- I used to get depressed with it too. You look out there and it's all that gloom all the time, really. It does get you down. You know, there came a time in my experience when I found the answer to depression. I used to be depressed a lot. I had long times of sorrow. I was on a low key, and I had something that really happened in my life that changed me and gave me a victory over depression. Norm, do you mind if I share that with you? But now we're going to talk about these. I got one for you. Okay. Um, you know, management, you know, they just don't care. And look at the people that are sitting around here, morale is low. Yeah. Yeah, I, I know how it is in a corporation. I work with them so, so long, and, and you really feel that, that in a, in a business organization, people don't care for you. You're just a, just a co- just a cog in the whole operation, something like that, Warren. And just a IBM card punched out. Just one more cipher. Gregory W551186349. You ever get that feeling? Listen, that's why it was so tremendous to me to read in the Word of God that God looked on me not as a number or as a cog, but as an individual. He loved me personally. You ever thought about that, Warren? No, I haven't. Let's talk about it. I'd like to go to church, but it just seems like my job. It takes too much of it. I've got a family to feed, and I sometimes do a little work on Sunday, and I'm gone. I just don't feed my family. Yeah. Well, um, I can be very sympathetic. I- I've had a very demanding job, and I know what it is to be worn out and, and uh, feel family responsibilities, and so I can, uh, I can sympathize with that in many ways. You know, though, that as tired as I was, you know, I, I began to ask myself the question of what I'm here for, what life is all about. I mean, um, why do you really think that, uh, God has given us life? Why are we here? Is it just to eat and to drink and to work and to come home and to sleep? What does, what is life for? What's the purpose of life, in your estimation? Well, I've already finished, uh, providing for my family and taking care of them. Yes, but you're worth something more, aren't you, than just like an ant to bring home something for your family? Uh, you have an immortal soul, don't you? You have a, you have a, you have a worth and a significance as a person that goes beyond the fact that you just bring home food. If God looks at you, what is the significance of your life? What is your life given for? Ah. See? Anything you want to talk about? If you're looking. You know, uh, Barnhouse used to say that he could find an illustration for anything. Just name it, he could do it. And the man said, oh, I doubt that. He says, why? Look at this site down the middle of this highway. Oh, he says, that's easy. Straight as the gates, narrow as the path. We got to, a couple of our fellas got there, we were riding over the New Mexico desert, and they got to testing me on anything. I don't care if it was a cactus or a beer sign or anything else. We just practiced. It didn't make any difference. You, you just pull it right back into that channel. You know why? You know what you're there for. You know what you're there for. Yeah. I think people call themselves Christians, and they don't seem to be happier, and I am happy. Bob, I used to feel the same way that you did. I really did. I looked at them, and I saw all of them in their messed up condition and their hypocrisy and everything else, and I used to spit on them as they walked by on the campus, really. Of course, I came to realize that there's a difference between people who go to church and say they're Christians and real Christians, tremendous difference. But also, you know, I came to raise the question or face the question, what does that have to do with my relationship to Jesus Christ? Let me ask you, Bob, does that really matter in your personal relationship to God or Jesus Christ? It really doesn't. The railroad man that told this afternoon, boy, he says, I get called out any time of night. He said, I, I, my time's not my own, and anything to do. I don't go to church, I don't, I want my kids to go to church, but I don't have any chance. I can always go to church, I just sleep. Be in bed. Could you fall asleep in church? Yeah. Because you're too tired to go? And when I question it, he says, oh, you just don't understand. You can't understand. You don't have a job like this. I just never know when I'm going to get called, and it's time don't mean anything for years, but time doesn't mean anything. Just call anytime you want. You know, uh, I know what it is to be tired. And I can really feel for you in being tired and being on that kind of a job. I guess it's a question, really, of, uh, facing, um, what we want to do with our life. I have to tell you that I'd be really concerned in my life that, and they sort of tapped me in the face with a spade, that really, that most of my life, really, I had just simply been the victim of my work schedule and my fatigue, that I let that dictate my whole life. See, that would be, that would concern me. Let me ask you, don't you think that in addition to being a body that gets tired and so, that you also have a spirit. What happened then, I am interested, but I just can't have it. Yeah. I know you're interested, but I want you to think with me, even though you say that you can't. Think with me very carefully about what it means to have a spirit and to be made by God for the purpose of worshiping. I just want you to think with me. Don't think about the difficulty. Think about your life. Think about the future, okay? Well, I try to get my wife to take the kids to church and I'm glad you do that. I'm glad you do that, and I'm sorry she's a disappointment to you, but I want to talk to you about your spirit and God. See, let's talk about it. In other words, what you do, you don't let them off that button, okay? And you notice in every case, you recognize what they say. You see that? You recognize what they say. Don't put down what they say. Relate to what they say. Tie into what they say. If at all possible, sympathize with what they say. If you can't agree with what they say. Then you say, but. But. Anyone said, uh, this guy can say something good about everybody. No, I don't think he can. Sure he can. Just try me too. But what about the devil? Well, he says, he's always on the job. Okay. How far do you go with sympathizing with him and pretty well sense that they're excusing, making Oh, sure. Well, in the sense that you're not, you're not agreeing with his excuses. You're, you're, you're saying, you're recognizing what he said. The guy says, I'm, I'm beat. I believe he is. Okay, maybe that is an excuse, but he's beat. I recognize that. Even Jesus was fatigued. I get so tired sometime at night, you know, I feel like my bones ache. And I remember that Jesus was tired. Say in the South, plum tired. That's when you're really tired, okay? Something we haven't talked about, and what you did in many of these different examples was that you identified with, well, you know, I would like, and identified where they were. Oh yeah. I in making the transition. I want to be right where they are. I want to stand in their moccasins. I want to stand on their right side, right over here, and I want you and I to talk about this thing together. I don't want to be talking to you anytime and trying to do anything with you from this side of the table. You're over there, and I'm over here, and I'm talking down to you. That's not effective. You want to come around if you don't have any barriers so that you can identify with people. Why do you think that Jesus had such an audience among common people? Well, because he identified with common people. Sit where they sat. Sat where they're sat. Yes. So an attitude in this moment, when you talk about the... being compassionate. It's compassionate, but also what we used to call, uh, we don't have any equivalent expression up here, but in the South they call it being one of the folks. Sometimes that's very hard for people that are very formal. Now you take Bill McDonald, he's a proper Bostonian, but he's really a very friendly guy. He, he puts himself, he has to work at that, though. Well, it's easier if you come out of a different area, or you just speak to people on the street, and it becomes natural to you. The more you can be natural with people and, uh, take off your coat and meet with them in your shirt sleeve, and if people come in there and say, can I get you a cup of coffee? I don't care whether I want it or not, I take it anyway. Would you like hot chocolate? You say to yourself, I hate hot chocolate. Take one anyway. An old Chinese missionary one time, she used to go around, a woman doing village work, a proper English woman, and she'd go around these villages and he'd pull out one of these dirty cups right out of here. That's where they kept it next to their body. Pour them a cu- cup of hot tea. You knew that thing hadn't been through the tide soap for a thousand years. And then she'd take a cup of hot tea when they weren't looking. She'd turn and pour it into some kind of plant and ask them for another. So that's where she got one sterilization out of it. She didn't turn them down. You go out there with those sheiks in the Middle East, and they offer you sheep's eyeballs, you just gulp and eat it anyway. Yeah. Yeah. What about when you make a transition and all of a sudden they say something, and you, and then they come back to something else, and you come right back to next, uh... Well, one of the things you do is you want to keep that conversation centered on that same track. It's on the Lord Jesus Christ and their relationship to him. So wherever they go, what you're going to do is bring them back to the central subject. It's you and the Lord. See, they may ride off around the South forty, but sooner or later we're going to come back to say you and the Lord.