Leckie, Albert: Ministry From Hebrews-11 ~ Heb 12

To Three. And the subject matter of this first section is an exhortation to faithful endurance based upon the teaching of the preceding chapter. An exhortation to faithful endurance based upon the teaching of the previous chapter, chapter eleven. The second section from verse four to thirteen, we have an exhortation to be subject to our Father's chastisement. An exhortation to be subject to our Father's chastisement, that we might become partakers of His holiness. The third section, from verse fourteen to seventeen, there is an exhortation to diligence because of the danger of apostasy, and with it the danger of the many being defiled. An exhortation to diligence because of the danger of apostasy, and with the apostasy, the many thereby being defiled. And then from verse eighteen to twenty four, we have an appeal based on the superiority of the New Covenant. Mount Sinai and Mount Sinai are brought before us in such a way that it would make it altogether impossible for anyone to go back to all that Mount Sinai represented, to do what Esau did, to barter future blessing for present ease, uh, and comfort. And then verse twenty five to twenty nine, we have a section wherein there is brought before us, on the one hand, the guilt and the dreadful peril associated with apostasy, and on the other hand, the glory and the bliss that belongs to the child of God. Now, very briefly, we shall look at these sections. Verses one to three, where we have the race brought before us, and with it the exhortation to faithful endurance. I want to just suggest two principles connected with this. Verse one, looking off unto Jesus. Verse three, considering him. As I see this twofold exhortation, I believe it, eh, directs to our attention, eh, truth from a twofold standpoint. First of all, looking off into Jesus. It seems to be that the teaching here is looking off onto Jesus where he now is, whereas the teaching in verse three is considering him when he was here. And the thought, I believe, to be this, looking away from the Old Testament witnesses of faith to Jesus, the leader of faith, that we might have all the encouragement that is necessary. Looking away from the Old Testament saints as the witnesses of faith and looking off into Jesus' encouragement. But this word, consider him, is a delightful word. We won't speak of its significance now. It has the thought of reckoning. It's not looking away from others to Jesus, but considering Jesus and all that he endured when he was here in relation to ourselves, that we might not lag in the pathway. Considering him and all that he endured when he was here, in relation to what we might be enduring even now, that we might not flag in our testimony or in the rest. Thus, we're looking often to him where he is and considering him in relation to what he was down here. Then verses four to thirteen, we have the exhortation to be subject to the father's discipline, to the father's chastening. We have, in verse six the blessed truth stated by the apostle that chastening is an evidence of divine love. Something most important to observe, that the chastening of a father is an un- undoubted evidence of his love. Verses seven to eight makes it clear that chastening is an undoubted evidence of sonship, that we are the father's sons. In one Corinthians chapter eleven, chastening is conclusive proof of our immunity from future judgment. But in Hebrews chapter twelve, chastening is an undoubted, eh, proof that we belong to the Father, that we are the Father's sons. Number one, it's an evidence of a father's love. Number two, it's an undoubted evidence that we belong to the Father, that we are the Father's sons. And then we have stated the purpose of chastening. Verse nine that we might live. And I believe the thought is, as we might see later, that we might live by faith and not draw back, that we might live. Verse ten, that by it we might become partakers of his holiness. Verse eleven, that there might be produced the fruit of righteousness. And verse thirteen, it is for our healing. How necessary, then, is chastening, that we might live by faith and not draw back, that we might become partakers of divine holiness, that there might be produced the peaceable fruit of righteousness, and that there might be healing. And then verses fourteen to seventeen, we have the call to diligence because of the danger of apostates. I discovered that this diligence is, first of all, self-ward, and then it's in relation to the professing company. In relation to self, the teaching of verse fourteen is, follow peace, pursue peace with all, and holiness, without which no man can see the Lord. Then verse fifteen, with regard to other- with regard to others, looking diligently or watching lest any man fall short of the grace of God, that there might be in the professing company apostates. And the example is cited of Esau, who bartered with future blessing, as I mentioned, for present ease and momentary. And the writer makes it clear that in part of Esau we have a glaring example of apostasy, a man in whom there was no self-judgment nor contrition despite his tears. And then verse eighteen to twenty four, we have an appeal based upon the amazing superiority of the New Covenant to the Old Covenant. The contrast between Mount Sinai and Mount Zion. Says the writer in verse eighteen, ye are not come. Now this is an important principle. It gives us to appreciate that Christianity is not Judaism. It isn't even an improvement of Judaism, but Christianity is, in fact, an amazing contrast to Judaism. Ye are not come to the mount that might be touched. And in the setting of this verse, the writer directs our attention to the accompaniment, the accompaniments of the giving of the law. The many accompaniments which were menacing and fatal, the details of which we shall, of course, see later. But we've come to Mount Zion. Now, what is the thought in connection with Mount Zion? As we read the sad history of the book of the Judges, we discover that the system connected with the law and the priesthood had utterly failed. Then after the Judges, God maintained for a while a prophetic testimony in Samuel. And you will remember that during the time of the Judges, the ark had been carried away, and over the nation was written, Ichabod, the glory has departed. And then a prophetic testimony was maintained for a while in Samuel. Then after God removed Samuel, eh, after God removed Saul and David was introduced, the man after God's own heart, you remember how that the ark was recovered by the man who conquered Goliath, and we recall how that he placed the ark on Mount Zion, and he set the Levites before it to praise the Lord. Now Israel looks for something of that nature in the future, connected with an earthly kingdom, but here in this setting, the writer associates it with all that belongs to us in the grace of God in the future. What we shall enjoy in person then, we do enjoy in spirit now. Mount Zion was not only the place where the ark was placed, but you remember in connection with Jerusalem, there was Mount Moriah and Mount Zion. On Mount Moriah, the temple was built. On Mount Zion, David's palace was built with the thrones for the judges of Israel, and thus in connection with Mount Zion too, we have the thought of government and rule, and it directs our attention to all that in divine mercy and grace will be recovered in the future kingdom. We shall think of that, eh, in greater detail later. Then, in verses twenty two to twenty five, we have, as we shall see, a delightful picture of that future kingdom. And let me repeat, we come to that in hope, or if you will, we come to that in spirit now, but praise God, we're going to reach it in person in a day that's yet to be. Then in the final section, verses twenty five to twenty nine, we have the pearl of apostasy. No escape, says verse twenty five, for those who turn away. But for the child of God, we have this glorious truth. We receive a kingdom which cannot be moved. And thus, this chapter is fraught with its most interesting teaching, and I think we would do well to consider it verse by verse now, and I trust we shall feel free to ask questions and make helpful contributions as well. Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses. Now, I think we would all be agreed that the cloud of witnesses here refers to the folks that have been mentioned in chapter eleven. And the idea in witnesses here is not that of spectators. It's a different word altogether, where Luke speaks of the eyewitnesses in chapter one. Peter speaks of eyewitnesses of His Majesty in his second epistle, and we read in one Corinthians four of being a spectacle to the world, to angels, and to demons. It's not the thought of eyewitnesses, but it's a cloud of those who were witnessed to by God because of their faith. We are encompassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, and the witnesses are not spectators, but those who were witnessed to by God because of their faith, as we saw on the previous two evenings. In the words we also, is there an inference that somebody else is encompassed about by a cloud of witness besides ourselves? Well, I think that, uh, down the ages, of course, uh, men who were born witness to by faith had also witnesses as to the same principle as well. Actually, Mr. Leckie, the wording here, eh, literally it reads like this, doesn't it? Wherefore, seeing also we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses. Mm-hmm. It's not so much, eh, it's not so much we also, but it's also we. That is, in addition to all that has preceded, we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses. Yes. Wherefore seeing we are encompassed about, let us also. Yes. The also is connected with the exhortation. Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm. What would you say of weighty? They assign every weight. What, what would you term a weight? The word weight here is an interesting word. It comes from a Greek word which conveys the idea of a swelling or prominence, and it's the idea of the racer in a ra- the runner in a race, eh, laying aside everything that was an incumbence to him in the race. And if we think of it in terms of a swelling, of prominence, it could do to do with pride and arrogance and all that kind of thing, that which of co- which of course would be a weight in the race that is set before us. You have a similar thought in two Timothy chapter two, uh, then, although the object is not the same, there's a different lesson involved, um, not entangled with the affairs of the world. Yes, and uh, I- I think that you would have the thought too in one Corinthians nine, keeping the body under and bring it into subjection. This word here, Mr. Lecky, the sin which doth so easily beset us, it has the thought of surrounding us, encircling us, eh, entrapping us, so that there is a twofold surrounding here, or there can be. First of all, we are surrounded, we're encompassed with the great cloud of witnesses, all these men of the Old Testament, of whom God witnessed us to their faith. But then secondly, if we're not careful, we're in danger of being surrounded, eh, by the, by, by, by the sin which doth so easily beset us, perhaps most prominently the sin of unbelief, Yes. encircled by unbelief. Yes, I think the thought and then, eh, the sin which doth so easily beset us, eh, it's the idea of a robe that might encircle. Yes. And, uh, retard progress. Is this, uh, sin a root principle or, uh, or otherwise? I don't thi- I think, as Brother Bell suggested, the main thought is the sin of the Epistle of the Hebrews, the sin of unbelief. So let it, is the main thought of this verse endurance or perseverance? Well, I think, uh, there are both thoughts in the word, that, eh, this is not the short hundred-yard sprint that requires speed. This is the marathon race that requires endurance, that requires patience, that requires perseverance. And why does it require endurance? Because here we've a race, the goal of which is never reached on earth. And because of that perseverance and endurance is necessary. We never reach the goal down here. I take it that a weight could not be something that's really simple, more cumbersome. It's been illustrated by, uh, running a race. You couldn't run a race with an overcoat on. There's nothing wrong with an overcoat, but it's not a suitable thing to run a race with. Something that's not expedient, like a- Yes. It's interesting, Mr. Lecky, isn't it, that in three of the prominent scriptures which deal in the New Testament with the figure of a race, eh, the subject is approached from three different standpoints. In First Corinthians nine, where Paul speaks of they that run a, run in a race run all, he has in mind particularly the training, eh, the self-denial. I buffet my body and bring it into subjection and so on. The, the training, the self-denial involved. In Philippians three, he has in mind particularly the prize. I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. But here in Hebrews twelve, it's more particularly the course. It's the reach that is set before us. What do you mean exactly by sin of unbelief, Mr. Leki? Because they believed in Christ and they believed in him. Of course, it has still has the background of the whole epistle, uh, brother, where, uh, eh, the writer takes up them all on their profession, you see. Takes up those to whom he writes on their profession of being Christians purely. And the sin of unbelief would characterize those whose profession was an empty one. We'll see that as we come down the chapter again then. Would you say then, Mr. Lecky, that, uh, the weights were the obsolete Ju- Judaistic practices and ordinances, and the, um, the sin apostasy? I incline to that, brother, uh, uh, it would be the pride in what was antiquated, Well then. which would lead to the sin of apostasy. In that case then, would it be really fair or, or a, a proper use of scripture to apply that to a true believer today? Well, of course, we can apply the principle of it. But. As our brother, uh, Jones has been doing. And we have to run with endurance. The race is set before us as much as them, you see. And with regard to you and me, there can be weights and this sin in principle. Well, that's the thing, and that's the idea our brother gave us in Timothy, wasn't it? Entanglement. Mm-hmm. You're not entangled with Judaism, but entangled with other things, the things of this world. Yeah. Eh, it's characteristic of the whole of the Epistle to the Hebrews, isn't it, Mr. Leki, that while he warns them against the danger of, uh, danger of apostasy at least seven times in the epistle, yet he ever treats of them as being genuine Christians. Yes. Would you say that the positive side of this would be in Isaiah, that they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength, they shall run and not be weary? Yes, that would come out in verse three too, Reg, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Mm. It's positive here too, isn't it? It's laying aside. It's something which is a progressive and not a single act. It's not just something which is a single incident in life, but something which is a deliberate necessity of exercise if the course is to be followed. Well, I, I agree with what you said, latterly, anyway, Winford, that it's a deliberate, decisive laying aside. These things don't fall off. They've got to be laid aside, dealt with drastically. This is more of a marathon than a sprint. Yes. Oh yes. An obstacle. That's an obstacle. It's interesting, Mr. Lecky, isn't it, that he speaks about the race that is set before us. Back in chapter six, he told us about, uh, the hope that is set before us, till we hold upon the hope set before us. Here he speaks of the race that is set before us. You would say, Mr. Leckie, would you, that in chapter six the the hope that is set before us, that's privilege. But here in chapter twelve, the race that is set before us, that's responsibility. So I think the hope that's set before us is our going in. Yes. Whereas here it's our going on. Exactly. Yes, yes. Would these two thoughts, Mr. Leckie, be the subjective and the objective truth, laying aside and looking on too? Oh yes, I'm sure. One without the other. Yes. But I turn to God from idols, not from idols to God. Mm-hmm. Turn to God from idols is the objective and subjective. The idea in looking here is looking away from, or looking off unto. And of course, there has been controversy as to whether it's looking off from the weight or from the sin, but I rather think the context would indicate looking away from these witnesses, great though they were, to the one who is the author and finisher, not of our faith, but of faith, the beginner and the completer of faith. This word here, author, occurs, uh, I think some four times in the New Testament scriptures. It occurs in chapter two, where he's considered as the captain of our salvation. It's in Acts chapter three, and again in the book of the Acts, again, Acts chapter three, he's the Prince of Life, further on he's the Prince and the Savior. And thus, we think of Christ, he's the author, he's the captain, and he's the prince. Here is the leader and the completer of faith. It's striking, Mr. Leckie, in that connection, isn't it, that in Hebrews two, eh, where it speaks about the captain of our salvation, it's the thought of him having coming, come down. For as much as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part in the same. There he's the leader who came down from heaven to earth. But here in chapter twelve, where he's the author or captain, it's the thought of him having gone up and sat down at the right hand of God. In Hebrews two, he leads us, eh, in the earthly pathway. In Hebrews twelve, he's leading us up to glory. In Hebrews chapter two, God is going to bring many sons to glory. Yeah. But the one who come down, he's leading them to glory. Yeah. As the leader of our salvation. Yeah. And he's been perfected for that office by reason of sufferings. Yeah. But here he's the one who has begun and completed the path of faith and is now set down for our encouragement in the race. Yes. Why is the name Jesus used? We are exhorted to use the full title, the Lord Jesus Christ. Well, I think that this, of course, is, uh, is seen right throughout the Epistle to the Hebrews. It's Jesus all the while, uh, just as you have in the book of the Acts, this same Jesus. And, uh, I think his manhood would be emphasized here in the context because he's viewed as the leader and the completer of faith, and one who has now sat down at the right hand of God. It says Jesus, he is seen, I believe, as the leader and completer of faith. He's associated with an earthly people who have a heavenly aspiration. Yes, yes, I think so. Eh, the teaching in the book of the, the, the Acts was that Jesus was the Christ, that Jesus was the Son of God, and this is reaffirmed here. But I think the setting, of course, in this verse is looking off into Jesus, the leader and completer of faith, because it was Jesus who was the leader and completer of faith. As far as I see that, the thought is the one who began and completed without wavering the path of faith. The only one. You have Abraham, the man who was outstanding because of his faith. In connection with Abraham, read, he went out, he went on, he went down, he come up again. And that's true of everyone, save this one. There have been times when we've gone on and our faith has wavered and we have to come up again. But he's the only one who never needed to come up again because he never went down. He was the leader and completer of faith. How did the path begin? Thou didst make me to trust when I was in my mother's breasts. How did it end? My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Abandoned by God, but still claiming God as his God. The leader and completer, not of our faith, but of faith. Are we? Are we that word leader, Mr. Leke, the thought of chief leader or high leader? Yes, that is the word, yes. Is what you say color the interpretation you have to give to the word the joy that was set before him, against which he took the path of suffering? Well, I believe that, um, I know that there are those who interpret this who instead of the joy, but I just don't see that at all. I think it's the joy set before him, not just the joy of being seated or sitting down at the right hand of God, but I believe it was the joy of doing the Father's will that finished at the right hand of God. That was the joy that was always set before him. I gather that's what it is. I think you know the Greek word until there. Yes, but the context determines, as we have it further down in connection with Esau, that it's not always instead of, but it can be with a view to. And I tend to the thought, though wouldn't be dogmatic, that the joy that was set before him was the joy of doing the Father's will that led up to the throne. And that can be traced most beautifully in his experience down here. In Matthew chapter eleven, he's rejected by the cities wherein he performed his mighty miracles. And in the face of the rejection, he lifts his voice heavenward and says, Father, I thank thee. Thanking the Father in the face of rejection, how could he do it? For so it seemed good in thy sight. It was the joy that it was in the line of his Father's will. And the same in connection with his taking of the loaf and of the cup. He took a loaf and gave thanks, he took a cup and gave thanks. Now we can understand how that we give thanks for the loaf, and we give thanks for the cup. We've every reason for it. But nobody knew better than him what that loaf meant and what that cup meant, and yet he thanked God for it. Why? The joy that was set before him. Not only did he accept it as from God, but he thanked God for it as being God's will for him. I rather think that's the idea here. With desire, I have desire. Yes. I mean, that seems to be a lifetime desire. Yes. Come into fruition. Yes. You don't think that he laid that joy aside in coming down to this scene, the same as Philippians two? No, I don't think. Who been in the form of God, or did not offer to be equal with God, but made himself of no reputation. No, I don't think that's what it is here, brother. I know that that is taught. It's something that was set before him, not something that he had. Mm. Because I got one translation like this, looking off and away to Jesus, the preeminent leader and perfecter of this aforementioned faith, who instead of the joy then present with him, endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down on the right hand of God. Well, it's the same word, actually, you have in verse sixteen, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. It's the same word there, and you could scarcely read instead of into the context there. The version is instead. The, uh, you see, Mr. Rees, so many of these modern translations are not translations in the true sense, they're paraphrases, and that which you've mentioned, it's not actually a translation, it's a paraphrase. In other words, then, it would be true, Mr. Leckie, to say then that we, we know perfectly well that according to the last verse of Psalm sixteen, in thy presence is a, is fullness of joy, that that was ever the delight of the Son's heart. Yes. And he did, in fact, leave that joy and come and endure the cross. But Hebrews twelve and verse two isn't saying that. No, no, that's true. I believe it's what I was saying. Yes. The, the point, Mr. Leckie, is, isn't it, eh, in the light of chapter one, God thy God hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. His suffering o- his suffering all is over, and he's anointed with the oil of gladness. But now in Hebrews twelve, we find what that gladness, that joy has cost him. Would it also be the joy of having the saints eventually with him? Well, that might all be included in it. I think there's the joy of the Father's will, and now he's entered into the fullness of joy at God's right hand, having accomplished the Father's will. You notice there are four sitting downs in Eberles, isn't there? That's right, yes. I think we covered them on a previous night, eh. I didn't know whether that. I think some translations here render it, and I think it's the better, eh, and sat down at the right hand of God. You notice here, who for the joy that was set before him endured cross, despised shame. How interesting the words are. It doesn't say he despised cross. He couldn't do that. He couldn't treat the cross lightly. He endured it. But he despised, he treated lightly what is the most difficult thing to treat lightly, shame. And the absence of the article here, he endured cross, is not just the fact of his death, but the terrible manner of it. He endured crucifixion. What's run through my mind in connection running from one to the other, I don't know how you dealt with it. The first one, I know it speaks of purification of sin. The first one, he sat down in virtue of what he was, this person. The second, as the high priest being qualified for it in the eighth chapter. Then in the tenth chapter, in perfection of his sacrifice. And here we find in the twelfth chapter as the one who walked this scene from the manger to the cross. Yes. You find that here, he said, when it comes to the walk, you'll find this is brought in, it's not down. Yes. Newbury points out that this joy was his in a, in a past eternity and continued with him while he was here and will continue with him for all eternity. That's Newbury's, uh, pointing out to it. Mr. Letty, could we gather something from the different word used here? As regards the race, we read, run with patience the race that is set before us. Then, as regards the joy, referring to our Lord, we read, for the joy that was set, was set before him. The race is set, the joy was set. Well, I think, uh, the answer would be the race is still set before us, but historically it's something that was set before him and is now accomplished. He would see that in all the offerings, the priesthood, the royalty, and the prophets of the Old Testament, neither of them brought his father pleasure at all, and that his coming, and in the fulfilling of the will of the father, was giving him that great joy as well, in as much as eventually he would give the father all pleasure. Is that it? On chapter ten, I think we saw that in connection with, in, uh, sacrifice and burnt offerings, uh, thou hadst no pleasure, and thou wouldest not, thou willest not. They didn't accomplish the Father's will. Then said he, lo, I come to do thy will. But it all failed, prophets, priests, and kings, and sacrifices, and everything had failed. Mm. And he was the one who could come and say, I have set the Lord all way before me. And it that whatever was involved in the Father's will was a joy to himself in its performance, isn't that? Sarfati, I delight to do thy will. As far as I remember, Mr. Lecky, this is the only time that the word cross occurs in this epistle, as far as I can recall. Eh, would you suggest that the idea of that, the w- the using of the word cross here is this? The cross is the shameful death, eh, the death of a criminal, a felon, the shameful death. Now, back in chapter ten, he reminds the the Hebrews that once they were made a gazing stock, they endured shame, and now they are beg- beginning to shrink from that. And so he says, now don't sh- don't shrink from bearing shame for the namesake of the Lord Jesus Christ, because he endured the shameful cross for you. Yes. Yes, I think so. It's not, eh, from the standpoint of atonement. No. It's because it's exemplary. Yes. Yes. Is that is why we have Paul telling us in the Philippian letter, even the death of the cross. The kind of death, yes. Mm-hmm. Verse three says, for consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. This word consider is rather an interesting word. The word consider, eh, recurs in the epistle of the Hebrews, but I think this is the first occurrence of this particular word. For instance, you remember in chapter three, consider the apostle and high priest of our confession. Chapter seven, ha- consider how great this man was. Chapter ten, we're exhorted to consider one another. But here it's a different word. It has the sense of reckoning, computing, and I believe the idea is now, consider him, compare him in relation to yourself, the one that endured such gainsaying of sinners against himself, that ye wax not weary, fainting in your minds. Now he says, you just consider what he endured along with what you're enduring, and you won't be wearied and faint in your minds. Thus, it's not so much, eh, considering him where he now is, that's verse one or verse two— but it's considering him and all that he endured down here against what we might be called upon to endure. Fie in your minds, Meleke. Wearied and faint in your minds. Well, of course, it's in contrast i- i- in the ordinary race, it's, uh, it's fainting physically. But you see, this isn't a physical race. You would say too, Mr. Lecky, that in trouble and affliction, there's a danger of the mind becoming unbalanced by it. Uh, there there's a danger of the mind getting a an exorbitant and exaggerated view of the suffering, and he wants to stabilize and to sober their minds by riveting those minds upon Christ. You can only consider with your mind in any case, can't you? Can't you? Yeah, yeah. Mm. The mind is a citadel, isn't it? Mm. Unless the mind is affected, well, you're innocent. Satter will fall off and hidden. Well, this will for- this would fortify the mind, if we consider anything that we might have to endure compared with what he endured. See, what he- what we have here is not atoning, it's exemplary. Jimmy Paton said that, uh, it's it's the place where the thing's hatched, unbelief is hatched, or whatever it- ever it's going to be produced, The the mind. mind. That be, uh, similar to what we have in the disorder that let his mind be in you, which is also in Christ Jesus? No, I rather think the thought there is the disposition, like this, the disposition that was in Christ that enabled him to exchange the glory of heaven for the shame of the cross. Let that way of thinking be in you, that disposition. It's a different word when you come to one Corinthians two again. We have the mind of Christ, that's the intelligence of Christ, which I believe, of course, was apostolic. Verse four, you have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. Uh, I think that that couples with the preceding verse considering him. Now, you haven't yet resisted unto blood. But you'll notice in connection with Christ, it's the contradiction of sinners, but in connection with us, it's resisting or striving against sin. That couldn't be in connection with Christ, sinners with Christ, but sin with us. And would you say that sin here is still the sin of, sin of unbelief for the Hebrews? I rather think so. And you go- it's going to matter. Yes. consideration Yes. in a few verses. So you'd say, Mr. Leslie, that in verses one, two, and three, he's been bringing before us an example of suffering, but now in verse four, he reminds of the extent of our suffering, that it's strictly limited. Eh, ye have not yet resisted unto blood. Yeah. This would present a problem if, uh, this letter were written to the Church of God at Jerusalem, as some say, because Stephen by this time had faced martyrdom. Yeah. That's what I think the meaning of the word unto blood, is martyrdom the... I think so, yes, yes. Yeah. How is that to be linked to contending with a personal liability of being in sin, being with sin? It's linked here, isn't it, with the fact that we're in contention with sin, which is personal. It's not outward, it's in an inward liability, isn't it? You see, that's why I was suggesting that it's not so much here sin as a principle, but the sin of the Epistle of the Hebrews, because as a principle, sin, we do not strive against it. We reckon we've died to it. But here it's the particular sin, I believe, of the Epistle of the Hebrews. How is that linked with persecution from outside? I mean, if, if the first part, love me's martyrdom, that suggests the violence of men against us for the testimony. Yes. How is that linked with a personal understanding of my own preparedness to abandon and lay aside the sin, which is essentially my condition before God, not before the world, isn't it? If I'm running the race, it's a Godward aspect of it, Mm-hmm. not so much a manward aspect. Or is it linked to the fact that faithfulness incurs persecution? Well, of course, uh, all the Hebrew, Hebrews to whom the writer writes had taken joyfully the spoil of their goods, as is mentioned earlier. Now he said, don't let that be in vain. And he's including in that all to whom he writes, whether the profession is real or otherwise. And that's just the same principle here as I see it. It comes back to what you've already told us, Mr. Leckie, that the Lord in his sufferings endured the contradiction of sinners. Mm. But we in our sufferings, uh, we strive against sin. There's that evil principle within us which would be bet against the suffering, eh, eh, eh, eh, which would object to the suffering, but we, we strive against that. We rise above it. Is there a possibility of them having to resist it unto blood, apart from the word there, not yet? Oh, I think so. Yes. And then we have verse five where the writer is quoting from Proverbs chapter three, the words of Solomon. And ye have forgotten the fatherly exhortation which speaketh unto you. The word is speaketh is discorseth with you. It's the idea of a fatherly exhortation which discorseth with you as unto not children, but unto sons. My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him. The word chastening here is an interesting word that is included in the, the, uh, the verb, the word which means children. And thus this idea of chastening is the, the parent educating and correcting and training a child. So there are two possibilities here, Mr. Lecky. On the one hand, we might despise the chastening of the Lord. On the other hand, eh, we might feed under it. On the one hand, we might treat it too lightly and be indifferent to it. On the other hand, eh, we might treat it too seriously and be overwhelmed by it. Yes. The word despise here is a different word again to what said of the Lord in verse two— Mm-hmm. Despising, treating lightly. But the idea in verse five is, my son, be not careless. Yes. About the chastening of the Lord. It's carelessness. So that in verse five, we should, uh, forget not the exhortation. We should, um, despise not the chastening of the Lord, and we should faint not. Yes. Three negatives. Yes. Chastening is the normal experience of the child of God, is it not, Christopher? Yes, we'll come to that further down. It's the proof of our sonship, yes, of which all are partakers, he says, further down. Verse six is a delightful verse. For whom the Lord loveth, he chasteneth. That is, chastening is an evidence of his love, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. Uh, we sometimes sing our father's hand will never cause his child a needless tear. And that, of course, is true, that chastening is an und- an undoubted evidence of his love. Other scriptures, of course, make that clear. Revelation chapter three. So the chastening, Mr. Lecky, it brings before us a twofold evidence. On the one hand, it evidences our relationship to him, that we are sons. On the other hand, it evidences his attitude towards us, that he loves us. Is chastening always a spiritual thing? No, I think that, uh, he can move from persecution to chastening because God sometimes allows persecution, uh, to accomplish chastening. And I think these verses as we make it clear that chastening is not always punitive. In other words, it's not always for wrongdoing, but that it might deal with, do business with us as sons, and that we might become partakers of his holiness, and that fruit might be produced in our life. John fifteen runs on the same lines, I think. In the Old Testament, Mr. Lecky, Jacob suffered affliction for his wrongdoing. Joseph suffered affliction for his well-doing. Isn't that word scourgeth a hard word when we think that the Lord was scourged, Mr. Lippes? It's exactly the same word as John nineteen. I've wondered if there are two thoughts here. Whom the Lord loveth, he chasteneth and scourgeth. There's chastening and scourging. The Lord can chasten in different ways. He can chasten us by his word. That's second Timothy chapter three, for correction. But he can scourge us by persecution, allowing persecution. Yes, the chastening suggests the end in view, the scourging suggests the means towards that end. I think the next verse makes that clear too, Mr. Bell. Verse seven says, if ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons. Uh, authorized version is a bit misleading here. That first part of the verse would read better, it is for chastening ye endure. That is, it's not for your harm, but it's for your education. You're enduring these things. Not for your harm, but for your education that you endure these things. The verse 75 to Psalm 119, Habia. I know, O Lord, that thy judgments are right and astound, and faithfulness hast afflicted me upon the scourged innards. It's afflicted me. Would John Baptist be going through a period of chastening when he was in prison? Yes, it might well have been. Uh, evidently he was quailing under it right enough. His knees had become feeble. His teeth. Yeah, and his hands were hanging. Yeah. Yes. Have the word sons any significance here, Mr. Leki has contrasted with children? Oh yes, I think so. Uh, I think chastening is always connected with the father and his sons. It's a father that chastens his sons. Child then. It's just the birth die. Is this chastening connected with, um, the child you're taking? I think you'll have to speak up a little bit, uh. Um, is this chastening considered, is this anything to do with the trying, trying of the faith or the trial of your faith on Peter? Yes, it might well be, uh, uh, Leon, though the trying of your faith in, in First Peter has in view his appearing future reward. Yes. But here in Hebrews chapter twelve, it has in view a present partaking of his holiness and a present producing of fruit. But why I ask it, you suggested that scour- discouraging was a permissive reference to a desire. Oh yes, yes. It's interesting too, Mr. Decky, that he speaks first, whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and then, eh, what son is he whom his father chasteneth not? Eh, his chastening is viewed in the standpoint of his lordship and his fatherhood. Would you say, Mr. Lecky, that, uh, in the thought of the Lord chastening us, we have the thought of government? In the thought of the Father chastening us, we have, we have the thought of that which will lead to a deeper communion. Would you explain, Mr. Lecky, please, what relevance, um, uh, a warning about apostasy would have to a man who was actually a son. What are you thinking of now, brother Ray? Well, we think we've been thinking of this warning of apostasy and twice in previous verses, but these are sons, and sons are very, very definitely defined. In John's gospel, it's you're of your father the devil, Yes. or you're sons of God. Well, you see, I... Sorry. I, I feel I, this was a problem to me when I was a young believer. I thank God that I, I see the answer now, but I'd like your thoughts on it, because there may be other young, young believers here with that in their mind. Yes, you see, verse eight possibly answers what you have in your mind. If you be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, that is who are sons. If you're without it, then it's a proof that you're fictitious. I would rather say that verse seven answers the problem, Mr. Naki, if I may so respectfully submit. If you endure chastening, an apostate wouldn't endure it, would he? But a son would. Well, of course, I don't think an apostate would be chastened, really. Well, he would endure that which, which they are, which they are being, which they are suffering at the moment. He would pass through that, taking joyfully spoil of his goods, but it wouldn't come to him in the sense of chastening. He would endure the external thing. But this verse, eh, it is for chastening that ye endure. That is, what you're enduring is not for your harm. It's for your good, it's for your chastening. But in connection with the apostate, he endures it, but not for his chastening. God, thank you. Yes. For what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? In other words, that this chastening is the unfailing portion of all that are in God's family. And the verse, that verse would make it clear, uh, it is for chastening ye endure. That is, we have to regard it as belonging to this family, that chastening is all a part of our training. It has a thought of the process of maturing childhood into manhood, isn't it? Oh yes, when you come to partaking of his holiness and fruit, that's, uh, what before? Isn't it? In, in the sixth chapter, where the Old Covenant treats us children in immaturity, leading on to the going on in Hebrews seven? let us go on, leaving behind the ordinances which are the things of elementary and childhood character to the full growth of sonship. I, well, of course, there will be this difference, as you're pointing out. I believe in Hebrews six it's a difference in the covenants, the old covenant, the new covenant. It was childhood connected with the old covenant. It was maturity connected with the new covenant, but here it's growth in the same family, I would think. God dealeth with you as with sons. God will do business with you in that character as sons, in the same family. Seems to suggest, Mr. Lecky, that there was a time when this began, but it says are become, uh, have become rather, for the word are is the theme part of the word. In uh, uh, first sight, but if he be without justice meant for all are become partakers. See the thought that, uh, these people were at the time saved and then started chastisement to the Lord in sonship. I don't know that that is possibly historical, that it's rather ethical then. You understand what I mean, John? Eh, if he be without chastisement, we're all, we're off, all are become as a statement of fact rather than a statement of time. Are we to assume or believe from this that if I live a godly life, that I am still subject to the chastisement? Oh yes. Yes, I think so. I don't suppose we ever reach full maturity down here. If we are not dealt with as legitimate children, then we don't belong to it. Every branch. Sorry. Every branch in me that beareth fruit, the Lord purgeth that it might bring forth more fruit. Sorry, Mr. Evans. Yes. Isn't that true in natural experience that when a child is young, it needs physical correction, but as it grows older, a word is often sufficient. That's true, I think, in the Christian. God needs to chasten us physically sometimes, and we're young, correct us, and as we grow older and closer to him, as we should be, then a word is sufficient. That, that idea might come out in verse ten, eh, just in a moment. For they verily for a few days chastened us. The idea in the few days is what you have in mind. Verse nine, furthermore, we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, chastened us, and we gave them reverence or awe. Shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the father of spirits and live? I, I, I think the idea is living by faith and keeping it to the context. In Psalm ninety four, we believe that it's a blessing. In uh, four twelve, blessed is the man whom thou chastenest alone and teacheth in love for thy Lord. It's a blessing if we take it from the Lord. It's a blessing, it has some purpose. Oh yes, there's... that is the idea, I think, in verse seven. it is for chastening you endure these things, that the enduring of it is for our education. And that too will come out further down the chapter as well. Mr. Wetch, I had a question on verse eight. You have to speak up, Leon, I think. Sorry. Um, uh, a question, a question on verse eight. Mr. Bell quoted John fifteen. Um, does he suggest that in John fifteen, or do you think it's so in John fifteen, these are apostates and not, uh, true believers? Some suggest they're backsliders. Oh, well, actually, in John fifteen you have, uh, no fruit, and you have fruit and more fruit. I believe no fruit connects with unreality. Men deal with that, but, eh, the Father deals with those who bring fruit that they might bring forth more fruit. Why is the title, Mr. Lecky, the Father of Spirits used here? Well, I think it's in contrast to, eh, the opening of the verse. We have had fathers of our flesh who stood in relation to us as far as our flesh is concerned. Shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits? You remember Numbers chapter sixteen, God is the God of the spirits of all flesh, and Ecclesiastes twelve, uh, returns to the spirit, returns to the Father who gave it. He's the Father of spirits in that sense. It's the contrast. The Father's connected with the flesh and the Father, the giver of spirits. Yeah, and this verse the higher plane of spiritual life and physical life. Yes, exactly. The, the, uh, greater need for correction and its enduring results. Everything in this verse is superior to what is natural in contrast to what is natural. Yes. You see, it was the comparison here, as you say, and the same in the next verse. In John fifteen, is it it's the fruit of the vine, which is the emblem of joy, isn't it? But here in verse eleven? it's the peaceable fruit of righteousness to them which are exercised thereby. They should produce righteousness. Purpose of it, isn't it? Yes. Do you think the expression, Mr. Lecky, the peaceable fruit of righteousness would suggest this, that there's no peace in the chastisement. None of us enjoys chastisement, but there's peace found in the fruit that arises from the chastisement. Yes. Because I think the peace too is connected with the righteousness. Yeah. Righteous in a practical way. Yeah. The result of this chastening is I, I learn to live righteously, I learn the, what it means to master self and that kind of thing, and only that brings peace or peaceableness. Both are coupled up in the scripture, righteousness and peace. Oh yes, you can't have peace without righteousness. Yes. David in the Psalm says it was good that God chastened him. If he had not before, he was going astray, he says. And to them which are exercised, thereby this word exercises rather an interesting word. It's the word from which we get our English word gymnasium, and included in the word, eh, the Greek word here, there's the word which means the idea of naked. It's the thought of the athlete, of the runner in the gymnasium, stripped in training. And eh, the next verse goes on to eh, pursue the idea of that. Eh, the athlete stripped and in training, eh, every muscle of his body is tense. He would train. He says, wherefore, lift up the hands which hang down and the feeble knees. Keep every muscle tense. Bear up to this rigorous training and endure all that's coming your way. I venture to suggest as well with you, Brother Albert, that Doctor Ewen, speaking on these gymnastics while we were up in Scotland, uh, billion laughed at I, he spoke also of the training of the mind, of the athlete in the gymnasium, in mind training as much as in body training. Yes. Doing the same thing to the muscles entirely, without a movement. So that would bear what we've had previously in the chapter, wouldn't it, what you made reference to, other Harry. Oh yes, there are those athletes and those who train athletes, uh, point out that, uh, the mind can control every muscle of the body, you see. Yes, yes. In chapter five, Mr. Lecky, we read that strongly belongs to them that are of full age, who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern good and evil. Here it's the exercise in the sense of discernment. Here in chapter twelve, it's rather the exercise in the sense of development, the development of of holiness and righteousness of character. Yes. Now, the great point, I think, would be, uh, wherefore lift up the hands which hang down and the feeble knees? What would make my hands to fall down exhausted? What would make me to have enfeebled knees? I suggest when I lose sight of the fact that what I'm enduring has been sent in love and for my good. If I lose sight of that, then my hands hang down and my knees are feeble. Thus, there's the preceding em- emphasis on the fact that sent in love and for our good. But if I lose sight of that, then my hands hang down exhausted and my knees become feeble. May I for a moment ask you back to verse ten and ask, concerning the partaking of the holiness, is that an absolute standard for all, or are there degrees of experience in this? Well, of course, I think from the divine standpoint, the ideal is always set before us. In our experience, there might be, uh, degrees, but it's always the divine ideal. Be ye holy, for I am holy. It's a process going on here, Mr. Lecky, isn't it? It's the process of chastening with a view to making us partakers of his holiness. So that you have said, it's not something absolute, it's something that we grow in. Yes, the ideal is set before us, of course, but there's a process to it. Yes. I understand, Mr. Lecky, that the word lift up here, the same word as is used for setting a dislocation, reducing a dislocation. I hadn't noticed that, Brother, uh, John. I understand you the idea of dislocation in the next verse, and make straight paths for your feet. The word straight is upright paths for your feet, lest that which is lame. Now, there might be a, a variety of thoughts on this. Some might think this was referring to other lame Christians, but the word here is lest that which is lame, that lame thing, or possibly that lame member of the body be turned out of the way. And understand this idea of being turned out of the way, used in a technical way, it conveys a thought of dislocation, but rather that it be healed, that it be cured. Now, I leave the gymnasium now, and I'm going to walk uprightly, lest any lame member might become dislocated. It may relate to other lame Christians, but there is that. Has the apostle all along the while the individual before him, Brother Albert, or the assembly or the collectiveness of the children of God? Oh, I think that this chapter would be very individual, my sons. Yes, my Russian father. So you would say, Mr. Lecky, that that expression, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way, would suggest that, eh, the apostle wants them to rectify these faults in their lives, lest these faults become chronic. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yes. Verse fourteen, uh, pursue peace with all and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord. I suppose that the idea here is that, uh, we have peace and we have holiness from the divine standpoint, but this is something we have to pursue from our standpoint. And would you say, Mr. Rechy, the expression without which no man shall see the Lord, eh, relates to the faculty. Apart from holiness, we not have spiritual discernment to be able to see the Lord. Exactly, yes. Because of the peace and holiness that we have, eh, as a gift, we shall in the future see the Lord, but without it in a practical way, we cannot see him now. Yeah. Yes. Mm-hmm. God does not want us to be men and women of strength and charity. All peace for all men. Well, eh, s- eh, the book of the Proverbs, chapter six says there are six things which the Lord hates, he has seven abominations, and the seventh is he that soweth discord amongst brethren. That is an abomination, to sow discord amongst brethren. And then right throughout the book, you have the kind of men who sow discord, the tale bearer, the angry man, the wrathful man, and so on, the proud heart. David, the man of war, couldn't build the temple. It was Solomon who was made with man peace, that built the tem- built the temple. Uh, warlike quarrelsome men don't build anything for God. Verse fifteen, looking diligently or watching, lest any man fail of the grace of God or fall short of the grace of God, lest any root of bitterness springing up, trouble. You'll notice the word used in italics, and thereby many be defiled. I think it's a warning against the apostate here, watching lest any man fall, fall short of the grace of God, fails to rest in God's grace and in the atoning work of Christ. Lest any root of bitterness springing up, trouble, and thereby the many be defiled, for it's leavening if there this be in the midst. You get a somewhat similar statement in chapter three, is it, Mr. Lecky? Lest the promise being laid, being left as of anything into his rest, any of you should seem to fall short of it. Yes. The contrast in the fourteenth verse in it, peace and holiness, and here it's, um, it's the grace of God avoiding the poisoning effect. Yes. Bitterness. As far as I see it, verse fourteen is, uh, something I have to do with regard to myself. I have to look, I- I- I have to pursue peace and holiness, but here it's watching, lest any man, I think in the professing company, fall short of the grace of God, or or fall, I fall short of the grace of God, and there springs up in him a root of bitterness, and that defiles the many. It has a leavening effect. See, there is a contrast between the root here and the fruit in the previous verses. The one is, uh, blessing and the other is bitterness. Yes. The root is springing up and the fruit is growing up. Yes. Would you suggest that it's just something that may happen suddenly? Root of bitterness springing up. Lest any root of bitterness spring up. I don't know that it means suddenly exactly. I think it's just the idea of the root. And I think the fruit of this root is seen in the following verse, Brother Jones. Lest there be any fornicator or profane person. Here's the fruit of this root of bitterness, fornication and a profane person. I thought because I was thinking the fruit is not something that really springs up, it takes time, it grows up, doesn't it? Oh, of course, the the root, eh, might be unseen until it comes above the surface, you see, and this is when it when it becomes the surface, this is the fruit it produces. Regarding verse fifteen, Mr. Neki, I've always felt that if a, if a Hebrew made a profession of faith in Christ, his fellow Jews wouldn't wait to see if that profession was genuine or not. They turned the heat on irrespective of whether it was or not. Yes. So that he would have to en- endure the same kinds of things as when he was a believer or unbeliever, but in a believer, a true believer, it will produce holiness, but in an apostate it will produce bitterness. Am I right there? Yes, yes, exactly. You have it in, uh, in connect- the same word is used in connection with Simon and Axae, though, and the the gall of bitterness and the bond of iniquity. And I think the fruit here is seen in verse sixteen, Who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. That is, uh, Esau was prepared to barter what future blessing ought to been his for present ease and momentary enjoyment. And that's the principle here. You would say, Mr. Recke, the principle here too is that, eh, Esau was the firstborn. Now, these people to whom, to whom Paul is writing, eh, they are Israelites, they are Hebrews, and God says Ephraim is my firstborn. So they're the firstborn nation, and the blessing really, the blessing really belonged to them, just as Esau's blessing as the first bra- force firstborn belonged to him. But then, eh, if they shrink from it because of the persecution, then they're bartering away their birthright, eh, for a morsel of pottage, just for one morsel of comfort and ease, they are bartering away that which nationally is their birthright. Yes. Didn't they conduct illicit association with the gods of the heathen in the Old Testament, suggested by the word fornication? And then we have the other word which suggests that they were profane, those who reckon the name of God is no higher than the gods of those nations around them. It might be spiritual fornication here, but I think the other comes in as well. Yes. Yes. The verse seventeen is an interesting verse. For you know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the ideas, when desiring the blessing, he was rejected. For he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears. Now, I think what you've got to observe in this verse is, um, it wasn't repentance that he sought, it was the blessing that he sought, but it was blessing without repentance. I mean, in Esau, you don't s- although you see the tears, there was no contrition, no penitence, no repentance. Remember, bless me, even me, oh my father. There's no word of in- no word of confession. Illustrates the, the apostate who might desire the blessing, but there's no repentance, there's no real contrition. Would you say too, Mr. Reti, that there is the thought from, from the other side, from the father's side, bless me also, oh my father, and eh, Isaac says, I have blessed Jacob, and he is blessed. Isaac couldn't repent of what he'd done. He couldn't change his mind. I have blessed him, and he is blessed. So, if the nation of Israel, uh, reject Christ as Messiah, then God has nothing else for them. And in principle, that is true of the apostate, isn't it? Yes. Yes. No more sacrifice for sin. Yes. Yes. This birthright and this blessing, Mr. Leckey, it's not something that the apostate, apostate ever really had, but it's something that God at no time ever withheld from him, but he professed to have it, is it? Yes. Esau did not weep because he had sold his birthright, but because he had lost it. That's correct, yes. And there was no repentance for him because he sinned. He sold his birthright in, in which the promise of the coming deliverer was to come, and he's, he, he sold the only hopes God had given. The, the deliverer was to come through the firstborn. Now, Esso had no, had no value at all upon it, so he sold it. God had no other thing to offer him. Yes. There was no other way for him to be, to be, to receive the blessing. We have the mind again coming in verse seventeen only according to the margin of my Bible, he found no way to change his mind. Exactly. So repentance has to do with the mind. It's a change of mind, the meaning of the word repentance. And then from verse eighteen to verse twenty four, you have the contrast between the old covenant and the new covenant. For ye have not come unto the mount that might be touched and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness and darkness and tempest, and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words which voice they that heard entreated, that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. This is all a description of the old covenant. The, the word, the, the words the Mount in that verse are omitted in most translations, but the idea seems to be that God intimated at the very beginning, at the giving of the Old Covenant, that it was going to be a ministry of death and of condemnation. But I think the expressions are interesting, for you're not come unto that that might be touched. Everything connected with the old covenant was tangible. It could be touched. And that burned with fire. It spoke of divine judgment. Not unto blackness and darkness and tempest. There's no light for them connected with the old covenant. There's no peace for them connected with the old covenant either. It was blackness and darkness and tempest, and the verse goes on to say, and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words. It's the awfulness of the old covenant. It was unearthly, and it was awful. Uh, which they that heard entreated that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. I understand the ideas that they entreated that no word should be added. The awful circumstances on the occasion of the giving of the law. For they could not endure that which was commanded. I understand that some of the, eh, Jewish writers make it clear that after each commandment, the people recoiled, and by angelic ministration they had to be brought back again. It's the awfulness of the old covenant. For they that could not endure that w- for they could not endure that which commanded. And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned. Now, I suppose the idea is this. If that's what happened to a beast, an animal, what about the sinner in relation to the old covenant? And then by way of contrast, verse 21, and so terrible was the sight that Moses, in contrast to a beast, he was the honored mediator who was familiar with the divine presence, said, I exceedingly fear and quake. What a picture of the old covenant associated with Sinai. That expression, Mr. Leckie, we have not come to the mount that might be touched. God doesn't, as you've said, he doesn't deal to the impalpable things. He doesn't express himself by material things as he did in the old covenant, because now we have the spirit. I was going to say this, Mr. Lecky, sometimes I have been asked in meetings where, where I've gone as to whether the assembly ought to have a harvest festival, and I point them back to the scripture. Ye have not come to the mount that might be touched. In a harvest festival, you have dealing with tangible things, material things. No, that doesn't belong to this age. We've not come to the mount that might be touched. God deals with spiritual things, not material things. Very blessed to think, though, isn't it, Mr. Leckie, that if the things that which we have of God, which are surely given to us of God, are not things which cannot be, are things which cannot be touched, they belong to a kingdom that cannot be moved. That's correct, yes. The chapter ends with that. Eighty to twenty one, a negative statement, are they not? Yes. Ye are not come, but verse twenty two is the positive, but ye are come. Yes. And I think there will be a contrast too in connection with this mount. There was only one man ascended, that was Moses, but we all come to this associated with the new covenant. Mount Zion, things recovered in great David's greater son. Then we have in verse twenty the things which could not endure, could not endure, in contrast to the previous verses, where the Savior endured and the sons endured, just chasing. Yes. He said they could not endure. There's no grace given for that. It's law. No, I, sorry, Mr. Bell. Go ahead. No, Lecky. I was going to say, Mr. Lecky, that it's interesting here, but here coming to Mount Zion, eh, back in chapter seven we had Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest to the Most High God. There we had Jerusalem as the priestly city, eh, king of Salem connected with Melchizedek's priesthood, but now it's brought in in connection with the ki- with the kingly side, the kingdom. Mm-hmm. And I think the, the verses which follow project our mind to that future kingdom. Yes. And we have come to it now, not yet in person, but in spirit. Yeah. In hope and the assurance of hope. And, uh, as time is going, I'm not sure if... five minutes. sorry. Uh, just by way of, uh, an understanding of this section, I think that you've got to observe that each statement is divided function and. And when you see that, uh, it takes you over difficulties that the, eh, the authorized version will lead you into by its verses. Eh, in other words, verse twenty two, but you're come unto Mount Zion. Now the next statement is, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. That is, we are come to the city of the living God. And what is that? The heavenly Jerusalem. And then, to an innumerable company of angels. And what is that? That's the general assembly. The universal gathering is this myriad, myriad of angels, the natural denizens of heaven. This is the universal assembly. That's not the assembly of today. Now the next statement is, and the church of the firstborn. Now what is that? Those that are written in heaven. That's the assembly today. And the next statement, and to God, the judge of all. That's not qualified. God, the judge of all. Then the next statement, and to the spirits of just men made perfect. I believe that, of course, refers to the Old Testament saints. And then the next statement, and to Jesus, the mediator of the new covenant. Now, I believe the thought, of course, here is the new covenant as it will be realized in the future kingdom. Now, it doesn't say we've come to the new covenant, but to Jesus, the mediator of it. And then to the blood of sprinkling that speaketh better things than that of Abel. I think that's how these verses are divided, and when you see that, I think it resolves a great deal of difficulties. This innumerable company of angels, that can't refer to us, surely. No, I was saying that. At the end of verse twenty two is the innumerable company of angels is the general assembly, and the general assembly, uh, is not the church. The word assembly here is an interesting word. It refers to a national gathering, as say, for instance, as they would gather nationally at the Olympics. That's the idea. It's not the word assembly, ecclesia. It's the great part that angels will play in their various orders in a universal gathering in the coming kingdom. And we've arrived at that in spirit, even now. You see, uh, Israel associated with recovery at Mount Zion an earthly kingdom, but we've come to that, that the, the new covenant, everything about it is heavenly, and we've arrived at that in spirit even now. At the beginning, you said something about Mount Moriah and Mount Zion. Can you say something on it? Well, I said that, uh, there are two mountains connected with Jerusalem. One is Mount Moriah, and the other is Mount Zion. And the difference would be this, that Solomon's temple was built on Mount Moriah, but in connection with, uh, Zion, uh, David's palace was built there, and it was there the thrones were set. Now here, it's Mount Zion, it's not Mount Moriah. It's not the temple, it's the future kingdom in relation to its administration. Wouldn't Mount Moriah be connected with sacrifices? Exactly, yes. And Mount Moriah, Mr. Leckie, in Genesis twenty two is the Mount of Vision. In the Mount of the Lord it shall be seen. Yes. Uh, Mount Zion in Psalm one hundred and thirty three is the Mount of Blessing, for there God commanded the blessing, even life forevermore. So there's Mount Moriah, eh, and the vision of the temple. There's Mount Zion and the blessing of the kingdom. Yes. And then just very briefly, the closing verses. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh, for if they escape not who refused him that spake on earth, I gather the idea of speaking on earth is Mount Sinai, much more shall not we escape if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven. This idea of speaking from heaven is associated with the day of grace. Chapter one, God is speaking. He speaks in sun. That's the greatness of the person. But here in chapter twelve, he speaks from heaven. That's the greatness and the majesty of the place from whence he speaks. Whose voice then shook the earth. But now he hath promised, saying, yet once, you'll discover the word more is omitted, yet once I shake not the earth only, but also the heaven. And this word, yet once, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Now here we have a quotation from Haggai, but the writer shows that there's more than all that was involved in the prophetic utterance by Haggai. It's the complete removal of creation that the new creation might stand unshaken. And of course, there's a delightful thought here, but now he hath promised. It's not he hath threatened, but he hath promised. Now, this was a terrible threat to anybody with a faulted profession, and it's a terrible thought for any who are not saying that the heavens and the earth are going to be dissolved and they're going to pass away, and that involves some dreadful judgment. But you see, with you and me, it's not a threat. It's a delightful promise that everything pertaining to the old creation shall be removed, that the new creation might abide, a kingdom that cannot be moved. I think the apostle thinks in terms, eh, of that in Romans chapter five, when he says, and we exult in hope of the glory of God. Mr. Darby, I think, speaking of this, has a, uh, has in mind this, uh, has in mind this when he writes in his hymn, joyful now the new creation rests in undisturbed repose, blessed in Jesus full salvation, sorrow now nor thaldom knows. It's that that cannot be moved. Let us then have grace whereby we may serve God. Understand the word grace here is thankfulness. Let us have thankfulness whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear, but reminding our hearts that the God who thus loves us and has prepared this for us, he is a consuming fire, and thus we serve him with reverence and with godly fear. Amen. Amen. Our Father and our God, thou hast reminded us tonight of the race that is set before us. We do seek grace from thee to run that race worthily, to run it steadfastly, to run it unweariedly. And then thou hast told us, Father, thy present disciplinary process, and that whom the Lord loveth, he chasteneth and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. Oh, help us, we feel thee, to accept from thy hand whatever ch- chastisement thou dost administer, and to learn by it that our lives might be acceptable to thee. And then, Father, above all, thou hast reminded us of our wonderful standing before thee, that we have not come to the mount that might be touched, or to thundrins and lightnings and the voice of a trumpet, but we have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, eh, to God the judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaketh better things than that of Abel. Oh God, we thank thee for where thou hast brought us, for what thou has brought us unto, eh, for that inheritance that we have in Christ. And it's this that lifts us up, it's this that cheers us. And in the light of it, Father, we would, we would find grace whereby we may serve thee acceptably with reverence and godly fear. So bless thy servant, renew him in mind and body after he has given forth to us. Refresh him, we pray thee, for further labors for thee, if it be thy will, and for us, thy people, take us away treasuring thy word, eh, ruminating upon thy word, allowing thy word to dwell in us richly, and going forth, eh, to live to thy glory in a world wherein thou art still rejected. Father, then, we pray that thou will cast thine arm around us, encircling thee, to protect us from whatever perils we may encounter upon the road home, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.