Gooding, David: The Third Creation Story: A Conversational Study on the Meaning of Genesis 5–11

Well, first of all, let me say how very welcome you all are. I'm delighted to see you, and uh, I'm delighted to find out that this is not a a a a man's club, you see, and that we have some delightful variety of human being here to leaven the lump. So that's wonderful. Secondly, I hear a rumor that you have been studying the accounts of creation in the beginning of Genesis, and so I'm all ears tonight to hear what you have found. I gather that, uh, consideration of Adam's, uh, genealogy and so forth, it made one man ill, or at least he was ill after he had thought about it. Eh, I hope that doesn't happen to you, but I'm all portion that we did was, uh, Genesis five, um, verse one, uh, down to verse eight of chapter six. Um... I suppose, suppose the main things that I noticed, um, in the genealogy was, uh, very striking when you read it a couple of times. For example, verse five, and all days of Adam he lived were nine hundred and thirty years, and he died. Eh, verse eleven, and all days of Enosh were nine hundred and years, and he died. Verse 14, all days of Kenan were nine hundred and years, and he died. Verse seventeen, Mahalalel, he died. Verse twenty, Jared, he died. Enoch doesn't die. Methuselah, in verse twenty seven, he died. In verse thirty one, and he died. Um, that's talking about Lamech. Um, so you get a genealogy with all of this reference, um, to people, people dying. Um, I couldn't find another one like this where you get this expression, and he died, and he died, and he died, and he died. So it's quite unique. Um, and it's the, it's the generations of Adam, and we thought that was, uh, showing forth, uh, part of the fall of, of death. Like in chapter four, you see Cain, um, take Abel's life, but this is the first time you get unnatural, natural death, if you want to put it like that. Um, so that was one of our observations. Very good. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Any more contributions? Oh no, what, uh, the question arises, therefore, uh, this is what is technically termed the third creation story. Uh, for that reason it goes back in chapter five verse one to Adam. We're starting therefore with creation in the day that God created man. So it is a creation story. And if you say, what is its difference, why are there 3 and not just one? It is because the three creation stories look at creation from different points of view. Just as there are four gospels in the New Testament, and not just one gospel, because the four gospels look at the life and person of Christ from four different points of view. So here we have a creation looked at from four different points of view, and the question arises, what particular point of view does this third creation story have? So man was made in the likeness of God, made he him. That chapter one told us already. Male and female created he them. Chapter uh one has told us that likewise, blessed them and called their name Adam and Eve. Called their, plural, their name, Adam. I wonder what our ladies think of that. Any protests? Called their man Adam. Raises the question, of course, the term Adam, uh, has two different meanings. It is the name of the first man, Adam, but it is the name of the species, means a human being. And here, called their name human being, uh, points us in the direction that this third creation story is going to, uh, e- emphasize. We have the same phenomenon in English, don't we? We talk about horses. But of course, uh, the creature named horse exists male horse and female mare. But normally, if you say, what animal is that, what kind of an animal is that? Uh, do you see, you'd say that's a horse, or that's a fox. We have a few, a fox now and again, uh, that does us the courtesy of a visit up the, uh, uh, Myrtlefield Park here through the gardens. Uh, do you see it's a town fox, apparently. Mm-hmm. But foxes, of course, exist either as males, foxes, or females. Anybody know the female of fox? Pardon? The vixen. Vixen, yes. Vixen. Uh, and so we have a, a lot of words like that, eh, do you see? Uh, Adam, uh, is the name of the first man at that level. His wife's name was Eve. But at the level of human being, they were both human beings, and the word for that in Hebrew is simply Adam. He called their name, blessed them and called their name Adam, human being, in the day when they were created. And so we have, uh, the story, uh, the monotonous bell that is rung at every end except one, that they died, they died, they died, they died. One exception, uh, Enoch walked with God, verse twenty two. uh after he begat Methuselah three hundred years and begat sons and daughters, and all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty five years. And Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him. The New Testament comment on that is found in chapter eleven of Hebrews eleven. Somebody be so kind as to read it to us. By faith, Enoch was taken from this life so that he did not experience death. He could not be found because God had taken him away, for before he was taken, he was commanded as one who pleased God, commended as one who pleased God. Well, pleasing to God, yes. Uh, uh, so, uh, he was taken without dying. Very interesting, uh, uh, fact from early Genesis. Raises the question, of course, of what you mean by human being? Can human beings exist outside this world? And so on and so forth. Mm-hmm. We should come to that in a bit later, yes? This is five. So we have all these generations, right down to Noah. So in chapter six, we're told it came to pass when, now I have to trouble you here, not strictly speaking when men began to multiply. The Hebrew word is singular. When man began to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters were born to them. That the sons of God saw the daughters of man, not daughters of some men. Daughters of men in Hebrew, benoth adam means human females. Came to pass when the sons of God saw the daughters of man, human females, that they were beautiful, they still are, and they took them wise of all that they chose. The New Testament's going to comment on that, on that aberration. But let's read on to the text. And the Lord said, my spirit shall Shall not. not. And now we come to a problem. In front of me is a translation that reads, my spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh. Yet shall his days be in hundred and twenty years. Now, this is a very famous verse, famous because preachers galore have preached on it, and what they have said has been in substance correct, but whether what they have said actually is taken from this verse is another story. Gospel preachers have tended to preach this verse to be in this way, that God's spirit has been talking to the congregation, or perhaps to individuals within the congregation, and exercising their conscience and telling them that they ought to get saved and do it soon, and so forth. And the preacher exhorts them not to put it off. What is the danger of putting it off? That the Holy Spirit might cease to strive with the person concerned. And if the Holy Spirit ceases to strive with them, they revert to, to their unregenerate state, so to speak, like a, a, a, a, a log of wood or something, and no more get concerned about their soul salvation and the need to be saved. Now, the warning has been fairly good, but in my humble opinion, it's not what this verse is saying. So that, um, the, you may notice at once, uh, the reason why, what is the reason given why the Spirit shall not always strive with man? What reason is given? What reason is given in your Bibles? He is flesh. Pardon? He is flesh. Because he is flesh. What's that got to do with it? It says his days will be one hundred and twenty years, so he's not going to live forever. He's not going to live forever? Because he's flesh in the sense that flesh can't last forever anyway, and flesh will die. Mm-hmm. Yes. But you think he could live till a hundred and twenty? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. For that he also is flesh. I take that to mean, this is what man is made of. Secondly, the word translated strive should better be translated, my spirit shall not always abide in man, for that he also is flesh. If we ask what a man or woman is made of, there are two parts, spirit And and flesh. fresh. What does God mean by my spirit? Put your thumb in that place so you can find Genesis again, and let's look at a psalm. And the psalm is Psalm one hundred and four, And it's talking about God's concern for his creation and all the animals and the shipping lines and so forth and so on. Verse twenty eight, that thou givest unto them, they gather. Thou openest thy hand, they are satisfied with good. Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled. Thou takest away their breath, they die and return to their dust. Now, somebody read for me the next verse, that is verse thirty. Thy sendest forth thy spirit, Ah. they are created, and thou renewest the face of the earth. Ah. Thou sendest, what did you say exactly? Thou sendest forth what? Thy spirit. Thy spirit. Notice that. Talking about God. God sends forth his spirit. How do you understand that, ladies and gentlemen? What sense is it, can we say it's to God, it's thy spirit, Lord? This is obviously in a post-fall context, Mm-hmm. um, and before Pentecost, whenever his spirit Yeah, right, yeah. Um, so is it, is it that... God gives us our, our spirit, He does indeed, yes. our soul, if you like. Yes. God gives us spirit. He gives it to all creation, all living things. We're going to read how that the flood, everything that had breath, died. Mm-hmm. Anybody got any difficulties with this? Theological protests, or, well, you can say what you like here. Mm-hmm. What we're trying to get at is why Genesis says, verse three, my spirit. The Lord said this, my spirit shall not, whatever this is, yes. Thou sendest forth thy spirit and renews the face of the ground. Yes? What I'm suggesting to you, therefore, is that verse three is talking of man's constitution. Man is, by God's grace and favor, as a creature of God, man is spirit and flesh. Yeah? Any objections? Just to clarify that, so this verse in Psalm, that Psalms reading there, thou, thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created. Are you distinguish that to the Holy Spirit? Yes. So that's a different, that's a different spirit. That's a spirit that everyone has, the life. That's, that's right, yes. It's God given. Mm-hmm. It comes from God. It is his gift, it's therefore his spirit. It's not the Holy Spirit. Yeah. Lions don't have the Holy Spirit, as far as I'm aware. Mm-hmm. I've never met one or talked to one, but they don't have an ass as very unusual. Yes, they scarce have the Holy Spirit, do they? But they breathe. So, and so this is, eh, for all life, so human life and all sorts of life of this. Yes, that's right, yes. This is, um, broad. Yes. Let's put that at least as a possibility, but we shall then see how the third creation story agrees with that when it tells us the result of the flood, what happened. Anyway, here, my spirit shall not always not strive with, but abide in man, for he is flesh. Yet shall his days be a hundred and twenty years. If you followed me so far, I'm suggesting to you that this chapter is giving us man's constitution. Spirit, flesh. Yes? And when man went astray and corrupted his way upon the earth, God destroyed him. How did God destroy him? His breath. Pardon? By taking his breath back? Yeah, how? How did he take his breath away? Flood. Flood, yes. Yes. When Sodom and Gomorrah sinned, God burned them up. But he didn't burn this lot up. He drowned them. If I got you, and I'm not going to do that, not tonight at any rate, but if I got you and filled the bath and held you under for quarter of an hour and then took you out, I should still have you, shouldn't I? Though there'd be something missing, wouldn't there? If you drown somebody, what would be missing? Breath. Breath, yes. Then is this one hundred and twenty years referring to how long it will be till the flood came. It could. Or is it referring to the lifespan of, of man? Well, it could be either, couldn't it, uh, uh, it seems to me. I don't know if you prefer one or t'other. It could be there were some very ancient, uh, people among the, uh, uh, post-Diluvian even. There was Abram. He was more than one hundred and twenty, wasn't it, when he died. So it could be, yet shall his days be one hundred and twenty up until the flood. That could be a distinct possibility. Look at the result of the flood. Somebody read for us verses 20, uh, chapter 7, verse, uh, twenty and m twenty three. Somebody be so kind as to read that in a good, loud, stentorian voice. Everything on the dry land in whose nostrils was the breath of life died. He blotted out every living creature that was on the face of the ground, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens. They were blotted out from the earth. Only Noah was left and those who were with him in the ark. Yes, that's right. Every living thing, uh, you see, in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died. That's what happens if you put them in water, keep them there for a while. So that, uh, uh, this ties in with what God is saying in chapter six, my spirit shall not always abide in man because he is flesh. Yeah. Now let me, uh, uh, try and, uh, uh, support that interpretation by asking you to read with me, well, first Peter, chapter three, chapter three. verses eighteen to twenty two, And I ask us to read this because of the two basic terms it uses. Flesh and spirit. It is also one of those places in the New Testament that refers to Noah and his ark. So we're on target, aren't we? This is the New Co- Testament comment on Noah and his ark. Somebody be so kind as to read verses eighteen to twenty two. Christ also once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he may bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit, by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison, which sometimes were disobedient. And once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was at preparing, wherein a few, that is eight, souls were saved by water. The like figure were unto even baptism doth also now save us, not the putting away of filth of flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. He has gone into heaven and is on the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. Yes, thank you very much. Uh, uh, and uh, uh. Now we notice that it is about our blessed Lord. Shall we notice, therefore, the two terms that are used about him? Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit. Tell me what that means, ladies and gentlemen. So this, this is just me. Yes. suggesting. The spirit was separated, obviously, from the body, Mm. and the body was into physical death. Um, and where, um, i- in Genesis, at the time of Noah, God took the, the spirit away from, from man, um, u- upon death, eh, at the time of Jesus and Christ down on the cross, God is giving the, giving man the gift of the spirit back for eternal life. Mm-hmm. That's very interesting. Would you agree, sir? Uh, a- a- any of you would agree that Christ, our blessed Lord, had a body of flesh just like we do? You would agree with that? Oh. Did he have to breathe? Yes. Mm-mm. And when he was crucified, he bowed his head, and what did he do? Dismissed his spirit. Pardon? Dismissed his spirit. Dismissed his spirit, yes. So we rightly to thinking then of man's constitution, and that is what is different in this third creation story from the others. Uh, do they? Doesn't mean this is more important than they, but it's part of what God wants to tell us about mankind, and uh, we're talking about this new creature called man. As far as we know, there hadn't been any other such before. There'd been angels before. There prob- there were animals before man was created. But now we had this, this new thing. We've seen so many of them. We see, we cease to be surprised, don't we? But it was a marvel. Wonder what Michael the Archangel thought and said when God went and created man and then woman. What is this? What would you call this? And Michael might have, I don't know whether angels get put out of, uh, you know, uh, get angry or otherwise jealous if they had been told that one day this new creature, man, would be raised above angels, principalities, and powers in the heavenlies. That's a tremendous story, isn't it? What does it mean to be human? So God brought a flood upon them with the results that we have seen at the end of chapter seven. But he saved Noah, as Peter chapter three. reminds us. Now imagine I am a Hottentot, you see, and I've never heard the story before. So now you're a missionary and you're telling this Hottentot the story of the flood. Now, come on, tell me, how did God save them? He said, I know, got my idea. Noah, there's a very high mountain here. Come up and sit on the top with your family and friends, and the water won't come this far. And they came as far up as his toes, but they didn't go any further. Is that how he saved them? Yep. Well, you tell me then. He had to build a boat. Pardon? He had to build a boat. He had to build a boat, get in it, and what happened to the boat? God sealed the door. Pardon? God sealed the door. God shut the door, yes, and sealed it, yes. And that was on top of a mountain, and it was okay. No? It went through the judgment. It went through the judgment. Now, in the picture language, but it happened once with Noah, with a literal boat. But that point is a very important point. It wasn't God saying, I'll excuse you the judgment, Noah. Noah had to go through the judgment, but was given an ark so that he could be in the ark as the judgment of God in the form of the rain and the lightning and the thunder and everything else came down upon the ark, and the ark was able to come through the other side, unscathed. Anybody here like to apply this as a gospel message? I'm hot and hot, remember. How does that ark illustrate? The position, pardon? Whoever went into the ark was, was saved, and likewise whoever believes in Christ shall be saved. Saved, yes. And they don't have to go through the judgment. For Christ went through the judgment. Ah, yes, Christ went through the judgment for you. And all who are in Christ are reckoned to have gone through that judgment. He went through for us, did he not? Came out the other side. That is one of the glories of the gospel. Mm-hmm. So f- so far so good? What can you tell me about what happened to Noah when he was in the ark? And of course, that was very nice, but it wasn't the transatlantic liner or anything like that. And, uh, you see, he was wondering whether the waters had gone down enough. There were no windows in the sides of the ark, there was only a window at the top. How did he go about deciding Deciding. whether Whether it was safe to come out. Sent out a raven. Pardon? Sent out a raven. He sent out a, a raven, yes? Mm-hmm. And what happened to the aforesaid raven? It didn't come back. It didn't come back, did it? And he sent out what? A dove. A dove. And... It did come back. It did come back with... is that the one that had an olive leaf in its mouth? Mm-hmm. Marvelous. You see. Now, that may sound a strange, a strange story to you, but it was a device known by ancient mariners and used by them. You see, if you think of Paul that the end of Acts being taken on a ship, as a prisoner, of course, but he was being taken to Italy, to Rome, and there arose a gigantic storm. So, uh, uh, there were, there, there was cloud, they couldn't see sun or stars for two weeks. They didn't know which way land was. Now, ancient mariners or ancient seamen, because of that possibility that they could be where in the middle of a sea and not know which way land was anymore, they didn't have compasses. They would take birds with them. And if they wanted to know which way was land, they'd let a bird go. And the bird would go home, uh, uh, as soon as it could, if it the right kind of bird, to land, you see. That's the way they were guided, the the ancient mariners. So this is not a a a fanciful detail, it is the fact, you see. They were guided by birds. And what bird did you say was the final thing that gave... Noah permission, guidance to come out? A dove. A dove. Do you... pardon? Dove of the Holy Spirit. Well, I was going to ask. But when is the term dove used in connection with the Lord Jesus? His baptism. At his baptism, yes. He was baptized by John, went under the water, came up again out of the water, and says, John, I saw the Holy Spirit descending on him like a dove. Yes. Very interesting, isn't it? Uh, do see. It's a very interesting example, illustration of what Christ has done for us. So, he was then led of the Spirit, says the the New Testament, uh, into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil and so forth. Full of the Holy Spirit and led of the Holy Spirit constantly. So should we be. What happened to Noah eventually? When he came out of the, the, out of the ark, and he offered a sacrifice to God, and God put a rainbow in the sky to comfort him, so that if ever the dark clouds came up again and Noah would fear that there's going to be another, uh, great flood, God put a rainbow against the cloud, you see, so that, um, uh, as a promise. I think it could be 10 die. Sorry. The last member. Good stuff, I'll get good seats. Ah, and a very good welcome to you. Thank you very much. We're talking about Noah and how, uh, he went through the God's judgment of the flood because he was in the ark. So he went through the judgment. The judgment didn't affect him. He came out the other side, and, uh, he was guided as to when it was safe to come out by birds, and we made out he was guided in particular by a dove. And then we observed how the, when the Lord Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist, coming up out of the water, the Holy Spirit, says John, I saw the Holy Spirit like a dove descending upon him. Yes. Very good. And the Holy Spirit guided him through life, yes. What happened to Noah after he came out of the ark? He lived a remarkable testimony and... Yes? Remember what happened to him? Got drunk. He got drunk, yes. He went in for viticulture, uh, cultivation of s- o- o- of grapevine and... got drunk. Pity that, wasn't it? Possible for Christians to get drunk? I notice you don't rush to tell me. Is that because you can't drunk yourself every Friday or every other Friday? Be not drunk with wine, but... but what was I saying? Yes. Yes. Yes. Having been saved by Christ and granted God's assurance that we shall not come into judgment, we've passed from death to life. God has given us his Holy Spirit to guide us. That doesn't mean we're automatically holy, does it? We could go our own way, surely. And that would be a very sorry thing. But let me then ask you to go back to one Peter chapter three. One Peter chapter three, and somebody read for us, uh, the verses, uh, sixteen to twenty three of chapter three that talked about our blessed Lord, put to death in the flesh, made alive in spirit. All our sins. Pardon? Sorry, were you reading that there? Or did you ask somebody to read it? I, I, I say we, we read that. Now I'm going to ask people to read, somebody to read chapter four, uh verse one to six. Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. For we have spent enough of our past life time in doing the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lewdness, lust, drunkenness, rivalries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries. Yes. In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissip- dissipitation, speaking evil of you. Verse five and six. Five uh and six, yes. They will give an account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this reason, the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. So here is Peter talking plain straight to his converts. In that first paragraph at the end of three, he's telling us about salvation through Christ, who is our ark, and that we shall not come into judgment because Christ bore it for us. That now he equally strongly tells us, warns us by what happened to Noah, that we're meant not to get drunk and not to engage in the modern world's immoralities. And that's saying something to university students, at any rate, isn't it, what? Where such lifestyle is common. We are meant to be different. And so the two things are connected, yes. The- they are saved from judgment, yes, but alas, getting drunk and misbehaving so that he brought a stain on the rest of history. Mm-hmm. Any further observations on this, uh, creation story? What do you think the point is of putting in that bit about the sons of God and the daughters of man? Why put that in there? Why put that in? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Well, uh, uh, first of all, the, the, the, I, uh, uh, I'm coming around to saying what I think it was put in, but, um, it has been variously interpreted, isn't it? You see, this seems to say that the, uh, as... let's look at the exact wordage. Uh, verse, chapter six, verse two, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair, and they took them wives of all that they chose. Uh, verse six— verse four: the Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bear them children. Uh, the same were the mighty men which were of old, the men of renown. And the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth. How to interpret it? Some have said that it doesn't mean what it appears to say. That the sons of God were spirit beings, angels, if you like, and that they had connection with human women. They say it's impossible because our Lord said that angels can't marry. Is that what our Lord said? Where does he say that? They don't marry. Pardon? They don't marry. They don't marry is what he said. Doesn't say they can marry. You see, the Sadducees came to him at one stage, and the Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection. Sadducees believed that when you die, you're done for. That's that. And though the, uh, high priest, generally speaking, in Israel in the time of Christ was a Sadducee, because they were very wealthy and very influential, uh, Josie, yet they didn't believe, Sadducees as a whole didn't believe in the resurrection. So they came to Christ with what they regarded as a trick question, you see. That would flummox him because they, he did believe in the resurrection. And they said, now, um, uh, there was this, uh, woman, you see, mm-hmm, and, uh, she married, and her husband died very soon. So she married again. Lo and behold, he died rather quickly. And in the end, that went on till seven men had married her and all died. So they said to Christ, now in the resurrection, whose wife shall she be? I mean, all seven had her to wife here on earth. So, whose wife shall she be? They thought they had stumped Christ because it was a nonsense question anyway. Eh, and he said, you do greatly err not knowing the scriptures and the power of God. For they that are accounted worthy to attain that life, neither marry nor are given in marriage. That isn't, uh, uh, uh, uh, denying the beauty and the healthiness of marriage here on earth. But in heaven, there's no need for marriage. Producing children is not a thing that will happen in heaven. Because people never die anyway. You don't have successive generations, not in heaven. So that in heaven they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but they are like the angels. That is not said that they can't marry, it's they don't marry. So here again in chapter six of Genesis, it is said, uh, on this theory that it can't refer to angels because, so it is alleged, they can't marry or don't marry or something, eh, and therefore, who are these sons of God? And the generally accepted theory among such expositors is that the sons of God were the godly line of Seth, who was supposed to be very godly man, and uh, was, of course, but he had a godly line of Seth, and alas, some of these young gentlemen, though they belonged to this godly line of Seth, they got involved with the rather less reputable, uh, rest of humanity, do you see? Why it should have produced such results as this is difficult to see. This, uh, as I would want to say, is telling us of a demonic attempt to pervert humanity. Can't put an end to it. So let's look at two Peter chapter two, Verse four. for if God spared not angels when they sinned, but cast them down to hell and committed them to pits of darkness to be reserved unto judgment. And spared not the ancient world, but preserved Noah with seven others, a preacher of righteousness, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly. Do you see the connection? Through Peter is talking about the state of affairs when, uh, God brought a flood upon the earth and saved Noah in the ark. But he spared not the angels when they sinned, but cast them down to hell. So that is what as a- as I understand it, eh, to say, and perhaps might account for the widespread notion that you will find, say, in the classical world, eh, of men that were supermen, superheroes, and became worshipped as such. Yeah? Any strong objections? Any people that would like to advance the first view that I gave, that it represents the godly line of Seth or something, yes? It would be very difficult, translation-wise, to say it refers to the godly line of Seth, for a simple reason, that the sons of God saw, what did they see? The not daughters of, danot adam is the Hebrew for human females. They are the sons of the daughters of men. Yes? But not Adam. So these sons of God are not likewise sons of Adam. They're a perversion. Mm-hmm. Are these angels that fell with Lucifer? Uh, it could well be. Could well be. Why do you think they did it then? What was their motivation? Well, I'd have to be one of them to be able to tell you reliably, and I'm not. But, uh, you see, uh... is it Ju- uh, Peter that tells us, or Jude? Uh, this is Jude, verse seven. Well, let's read, uh, uh, as we will, verses six and seven. Somebody read it for us. Jude six and seven. And the angels which kept not their first escape, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day, even as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them, in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Yeah, thank you very much. And you will notice, uh, Jude's careful language in chapter seven, in verse seven: Having in like manner, that is as the angels of verse six. these evil men at S- Solomon and Gomorrah, in like manner have given themselves over to fornication and gone after strange flesh. Would that then imply that, um, these were angels that didn't fall at the time of the, the great fall, but that these were angels who fell once they had, um, they had married the human female. Uh, well, uh, uh, I'm not aware that we're told precisely anywhere, uh, whether they at the times, uh, fell because they fell with angel, with Satan and his angels, or whether this was a subsequent, uh, lot, I- I'm not sure that we're told. And I think it, uh, sensibly a- a- a wise of scripture not to dwell on it too much. We're wise simply to take the fact and then pass on and be warned, uh, as you see. But if I might quote, go back to one Peter three. Can I just ask you one question there, David? And the angels which kept not their first estate, Yeah. but left them, what do you take that to mean? Little, yes. Is that ref- you take, you take that referring to them coming down to the daughters of men? They weren't, they weren't supposed to be there. They weren't supposed to be there. And they went there. Yes, and it's not a category that they, uh, that, uh, to which they rightly belong as creatures of God. Any more, ladies and gentlemen, than bestiality is a normal, healthy thing for humans. It is possible to humans, alas, bestiality, but it's not a category that has God's, uh, favor and blessing upon it. You see. Similarly, of angels, they kept not their first estate. Mm-hmm. So that, that is how I would understand it. Uh, uh, went after strange flesh. And then God intervened and chained them. Yeah, that's right. He said God would, God didn't allow it and said that we can't do that anymore. That's right. And here is a, a very serious matter, that they are kept, uh, under in, uh, in prison in that sense, under chains. It's like our remand system, when prisoners are remanded to come up to a trial. So the policemen were all there when this chap shot half a dozen people, you see, and they arrested him. There's no doubt what he's going to be charged with. Until he comes up to court, he is remanded in custody. So the great day of judgment is coming, and not only humans, but angels will be brought before it. Until that point, they are under remand. Kept as, as, uh, uh, uh, Peter says it, you see, um... First, uh, this is two Peter two verse four, for if God spared not angels when they sinned, but cast them down to hell and committed them to pits of darkness to be reserved unto judgment. They are under remand. Huh? So there are then, coming back, if we may, to two Pe- one Peter three, This is the third time that Peter comes round to speak of the sufferings of Christ. He suffered, verse eighteen, for sins once the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God. And Peter is telling us this because he has said in verse seventeen, it is better if the will of God should so will that you suffer for well doing rather than from evil doing, for, because Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the unrighteous. That's what we have to remember as believers, don't we? You say it's unfair if I be asked to suffer for the ungodly and can't retaliate. But wait a minute. We owe our salvation to the fact that Christ suffered unjustly at the hands of men, willingly took our place before God. He suffered the just for us the unjust, that he might bring us to God and must set us an example that we should follow his steps. Mm-hmm. But now, my final question on the passage. That Paul, uh, Peter raises, you see. Uh, verse, uh, uh, twenty, twenty one of one Peter three. Somebody read them for us again, would they? Twenty and twenty one. Because they formerly did not obey when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Mm-hmm. Everybody here been baptized or not? I know some Christians are not baptized. Everybody baptized? Good stuff, then you're in a position to tell me what your baptism, uh, uh, was meant, uh, me- me- was meant to convey, yes? What, according to Peter, is baptism? Must be linked with the resurrection. Pardon? Our link with the resurrection of Christ. Our link with the resurrection of Christ, yes, because baptism is a ceremonial burial, yes, and a ceremonial rising from the dead. Mm-hmm. Very good, yes. That, that reminds me to say that baptism, uh, to be, let me put it the other way around. Burial, you know, is for dead people. You're not supposed to bury people who aren't already dead. Now, you were buried in baptism. What for? To make you dead? Why on earth were you buried? To bring you back to life. Pardon? To bring you back to life. Bring you? So you could be resurrected. That we could be resurrected. But what about my point that you're not supposed to bury people unless they're already dead? Okay. And they buried, they buried you in baptism? It's a symbol of our... we've died in our link with Adam. We've died to our old family ties with Adam. So to speak, and we're now in a different family. In a different family. Should be dead. Yes. Is it that they're already spiritually dead? So... You're already spiritually dead? Yeah, so you're being buried. No. Is it to show that when Christ died, we died with him? Yeah, can you support that? Somewhere. Any scripture to support that? There is somewhere, but I can't remember. Yeah, it's up somewhere. Anybody know where? Romans 6. Pardon? Tell us somebody, where, where, where is this to be found? Romans six. Romans mhm six, is it? Ah. Somebody read us Romans six, please. Uh, verses five uh, through eight. For if we have become united with him in the likeness, or by the likeness of his death, we shall also by the likeness of his resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away, that we should no longer be in bondage to sin. For he that hath died is justified from sin. But if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. Well, for the time being, I'm an atheist, and you're telling me that you died with Christ. We're coming to the good of his death, we're united in his death. United in his death, and so you come into the good of his death. Mm. So, a young gentleman whose father is a multi-millionaire dies, and the young man comes into the good of his death and inherits the multi-millions. In that sense, we come into the good of Christ's death. Because we're related, in that sense. Because we're related to Christ, yes. I'm concerned about this man who said you died with Christ. Really? You do, Christians, you come up with all sorts of courteous expressions, don't you? Wow. You died with Christ. And that's why you were buried in baptism. Well, I can safely say this, you weren't baptized to make you dead. You mustn't bury people to make them dead. You, uh, you only have to bury people that are already dead, so surely. You were dead instead of trespasses. Yes, we were dead in sins and in trespasses, and Christ died for us. Yes? And salvation depends on... I agree to that, Christ died for, died for me, but I'm not interested in Christ myself. I'm going to live my own life thereafter, you see. Uh, I'm glad to know that he died for me, uh, and paid my debt. Uh, but that's, uh, you know, as far as it goes. Now I'm free to do as I like. Yes? No. You don't agree with anything I'm saying. Yes. What are the terms of salvation, ladies and gentlemen? Christ died for my sins. How do I come into the good of that? You have to repent. Yes, I have to repent, and then? Trust. Trust. Or, as one John, uh, John chapter one puts it, I have to receive Christ. I can't just sort of, uh, come to an agreement with God. Oh God, uh, Jesus Christ died for my sins, that ma- marvelous. Well, thank you very much. Now I- I can go and live my own life. No, no. To come into the good of Christ's death, I have to receive Christ, don't I? Isn't that how it is? Yes, and if I receive Christ, then his death counts as my death, and I am counted as having died in him. That's why he's buried. But burial is not, um, is not, uh, baptism is not simply a symbolic burial, is it? What is it also? Resurrection. A resurrection. That's true, isn't it? Very, uh, baptism is a symbolic resurrection. So that, um, I'm raised with Christ. I have the gift of new life that Christ has given me. That's marvelous, is it not? He died for me, and my death is, uh, his death is counted as my death. Uh, uh, you know, if you could go up to heaven at this moment and turn the pages of God's ledger, where God keeps an account of all our bad doings, and you turn to the name of Gooding, DW of that tribe, hoping to find something you could talk about in Northern Ireland, you know. Do you know what we saw on that page? Well, I'll not tell anybody, but I'll just tell you. Do you know what? You would find the whole thing cancelled. The criminal died. He died when Christ died. He that has died is, what does chapter six say? Verse seven: for he that has died is justified from sin. Sin. Delightful, isn't it? Yes. Righto then, eh, so, uh, uh, this is baptism. But now in two Peter three, and this is what we're particularly interested in, because Peter talks about this matter of the ark and the flood. And he says that, uh, s- business of the flood. Uh, do you see? Mm-hmm. Verse, um... Verse twenty one, which also after a true likeness, he's talking about baptism, doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but something else. Now, I was very interested in, I think it was you, sir, read the verse from your translation. What did it say that baptism was? Not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but, but, but what? An appeal to God for a good conscience. An appeal to God for a good conscience. Everybody agreed? You, you had that translation in your Bible? No, you don't have that? No. You don't? What do you have? But the answer of a good conscience towards The answer of a good conscience. So he says appeal to God, and you say answer to God. I see. Anybody else got any further translations? Interrogation. The interrogation. Uh, to God. But the interrogation of a good conscience toward God. So it's a question that my conscience, once it is good, begins to ask. Yes? Yes? What do you... what translation do you prefer, so to speak? Uh, it's a difficult verse, this, as has been much debated, uh, and so forth. Uh... as far as I can tell, you don't have to accept what I say, but as far as I can tell, it turns on our understanding of one, uh, word in Greek, ep erotama, and you needn't bother about it, but that's what it is, ep erotama. And the difficulty is that it comes from a verb which means to ask a question. So many people have said it's the interrogation, an asking something of God. But what on earth can baptism m- be if it's an asking God for something. The best answer that I've ever come across, uh, is as follows, that in Roman law, uh, do you see, and therefore in Greek law to some extent, if farmer Farmer Giles Giles. and Farmer Jones have a dispute, and as a result, they go to, uh, go to settle it in court. The thing in dispute is a certain cow. Giles says it belonged to him. Jones says, no, it doesn't. He stole it from me. It belongs to me. So that is the nature of the case, and they're coming before a magistrate. But in Roman law, before they ever got near a magistrate, they had to go to an official to establish the facts of the case. And that was done by hauling the two farmers together and putting a lot of questions to them that they had to answer. So it was a question and answer situation. Do you say that this cow is your cow? Yes, I do. Do you claim that it is your cow? Yes, I do. I say yes. How long have you had this cow? Since birth. And how long have you had this cow? I bought it at the auction. I see. And so the question and answer goes on i- in the law court to establish the facts. Now, in uh British law, we don't do things that way s- uh uh uh now, except there is one sort of situation where it could occur, and that's where a a young lady, uh, and a young gentleman stand before the minister at the wedding ceremony. Yes. And he puts a question to the man, Adolphus Maximus, no master, do you take this woman to be your wife. He doesn't reply, oh, don't be so silly, I told you that years ago. No. Yes, of course he's told the magistrate this, uh, time and time again. But now it comes to a public ceremony, and the formal question is put. Do you, Adolphus, take this woman to be your lawful wife? And all the rest of it. And he's supposed to say, I do. And then the magistrate turns to the woman and says, and says he to her, and do you, Jennifer Arbuthnot, take this aforesaid Adolphus to be your husband? And again, she doesn't say, don't be so silly. We, I said I would marry him. It was one night, you know, down a country lane by a five-bar gate, and he popped the question to me, and I said yes, you see, and that's what it was. I mean, what's all this about, this all this fuss about me? No, that was okay, that was in private. But marriages are a public thing. And so the question is put first to the husband, then to the wife, and requires an answer. That's what the Greeks called eperotao, and the question and answer, eperotoma. Baptism is like that. It is a question, not by the elders of a church, is it a question put by God. Do you, or do you not, take Christ as your only saviour? Who died for your sins and rose again. Do you? The correct answer to that is God, is God's own arrangement, is baptism. Baptism, so I say yes to God's question. I do. Take Christ as my only savior. And I thank him for the gift of eternal life that he has given me. The eparotana. It's difficult to put one w- in one word in English, isn't it? Question is all right, answer is all right. It's both question and answer. In a public ceremony. That God puts a question, and we answer it by being baptized. That's a slightly different thing from the fact that we, we, we dealt by our bedside one night and received Christ as Savior. That's marvelous, glorious, foundation of everything. But what we did in private, God will demand we do in public by his ordained way, which is by baptism. Yeah? So baptism is that. Our union with Christ in death, our union with Christ in resurrection. For he's gone into heaven, angels and principalities and powers being subject to him. Yes. There were any protests? Questions? Those with different views. Someone perhaps says that we thought we knew what her creation story was about, and now you've gone and ruined it all. What we see, therefore, in the New Testament, that it applies the lesson that the flood and the ark bring us, is that there are two actual races of human being. There's one in nature, just human being, and one that's joined to Christ. To use the phrases, in Christ. That is vastly important, isn't it? And it's a magnificent thing. So far from Satan succeeding in his attempt to pervert the human race early on. Christ has come, met all his temptations, including the sacrifice of the cross. Now listen to what it says, and verse twenty two of one Peter three: who is on the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. Now, this is too late at night for me to raise a very big question that, uh, we shouldn't get a satisfactory answer to, not before twelve o'clock at night, so I won't raise it. But you'll see, twice over, uh, Peter uses a Greek word which means to go. Forebamai. And it's a quite a strong word. It means to take a journey and go somewhere, you see. Uh, and uh, it tells us here, uh, verse nineteen, Being quickened in the Spirit, in which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison. He went and preached to the spirits in prison. I don't intend at this late hour of night to raise the question of what does that mean? All I'm asking you to notice is that it uses this word, he went and preached. Now in verse twenty two it says he is gone, but that's the same word, gone into heaven. Angels and authorities and powers being made subject to him. Tell me, angels and authorities and powers, what kind of beings are they? Pardon? Spirits. Spirit beings, yes. And this isn't just added on to make it sound nice. It is recording the tremendous fact that Jesus Christ, who was born a human being like we are, the Son of God, of course, incarnate, but with flesh and blood. Human, though Though divine. divine, Is has God. gone into heaven. What a journey that was. Angels being s- subject to angels, principalities, and powers, the various divisions of the spirit beings in that world. Subject to him. Now that isn't, uh, to be wondered at if he was simply the son of God. Of course the angels would be subject to him, except for the rebels, but they're meant to be subject because he made them. But that the man Jesus, who ate at Martha's table with Mary, that man is above angels, principalities, powers, mights, and dominions at this very moment. It's an astonishing story. And that is what is involved in our salvation. Ephesians is going to tell us that not only is he above angels, principalities, and powers, but in that sense, legal sense, we too in Christ been seated with him in the heavenly places, far above angels, principalities, mights, powers, and divinity. The future of the human race redeemed by Christ, is inexpressibly marvelous. C. S. Lewis used to say it, it's worth repeating. You see? I have to be careful how I treat this chap here on my left. You see, if an angel came into the room, I suspect our instinct would be to do like John did. When he was visited by an angel, he tells us he fell at his feet, and the angel says, oh, tut tut, John, you mustn't do that. You didn't know. No, you, you, you, you, you, uh, I'm just a fellow servant of yours. I could see this chap as he will be when Christ is finished with him. My first instinct might be to worship him. We'll be above angels. Then all believers will be like him. It's not that going, is it? There you go. So what are you going to do now, uh, the, the, um, sorting out the third story and getting it right and corrected. Um, then you're going to do the rest of Genesis? Huh. As a matter of interest, and not to start another debate, but just a suggestion that when the human race and the sons of God invaded human society, and then God destroyed that, is there any implication in the modern aspect of genetic engineering and tampering with the human race? Is there any parallel there? Oh. Uh. Well, I, I, I, I, I want to say yes and no to that. If it's a question of, um, altering, uh, my, uh, heartbeats, which at the moment are not what they should be, and my valves don't curve, and they could affect that by twiddling a few, uh, uh, whatnots in my body, I would be tempted to say yes. But if it's a question of altering humanity and mixing Mixing animal animal with with hu- human. I would think that is a very dangerous thing to do. That is genetically, uh, uh, what I'm talking about, genetically mixing human with animal. Don't know whether it is even possible. Mm-hmm. Okay, um, are there any final questions? Okay. Can I maybe just ask one, just to clarify, I'm quite simple. So just going back to the very first point we had at the start. So basically we're saying that Genesis six verse three, my spirit shall not always strive with man. That's the idea of God just sending the spirit that all men have. That's correct. So in a sense then there's a separation of the flesh and the spirit whenever the flood came. Mm-hmm. Does it pick you up right? Let me cite you as to merely to expound what I think it means. Chapter seven, verse twenty one. And all flesh died. That moved upon the earth, both fowl and cattle and beast, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every human being. And every living thing was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man and cattle and creeping thing and fowl of the heaven, and they were destroyed from the earth, and Nur only was left, and they were, and they that were with him in the ark, and the waters prevailed upon the earth ah a hundred and fifty days. Yes? Verse twenty two. therefore, it would be my answer to your question, what do I think? Then I think that tells us all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, both man, creatures, creeping things, and everything in whose nostrils was the breath, uh, uh, of um, the spirit of life. Yes? Do you think that's a fair translate, a fair exposition of what the verse is saying? So then, further question, is there a link then between Noah and Christ and our baptism in the fact that there was flesh and the spirit, and then there was the separation of the two, flesh died, and then in each of the cases with Noah, with Christ, and with baptism, there's a sense of a new, newness of life, a new spirit? Well, we certainly, yes, we certainly have a, a spirit that we didn't have before, that we were born of God's spirit, yes? Eh, as to the flesh, then I think we have to be careful because the risen body, uh, uh, does have flesh. So Christ, when he appeared in the upper room and they thought he was a spirit, he said, handle me and see, it is I myself. A spirit hath not flesh and bone as you see me have. So his body, yes, did have flesh. It is not that he became, uh, uh, uh, simply a spirit being. He remained human. Though, of course, he's Lord of all, but he remained human, even in resurrection. And that is very important because there are lots of people that want to say that the resurrection is, um, a a a s- a continuation of the spirit. But no, it will be a bodily resurrection, and in that sense physical. Okay, is that okay? But the flesh, in a sense, always, like even in our baptism, but we still have the flesh, and Christ, as you said, had the flesh after his death. Is it this Christ, whenever he gave up the spirit at Calvary, gave up the ghost or whatever, gave up the spirit, is that the same spirit he had then whenever he was raised again? Is that the same? Oh, I see, yes. Well, uh, the thing gets a little complicated, doesn't it, because the term flesh is used, uh, and partly of this stuff that is clothing my fingers, you say, yes? And so that's flesh. Uh, uh, there's nothing in itself wrong with that, but then flesh has come also to mean, uh, a bad, uh, use of the flesh, and therefore the flesh, the mind of the flesh is contrary to the mind of the spirit, says Paul in Romans chapter eight. Yes? Now Christ didn't have any of that wrong sense of flesh. He had genuine flesh, but it was pure, harmless, undefiled, and separate from sinners, do you see? So he wasn't, uh, uh, he didn't inherit, uh, human sinfulness. Mm-hmm. But as far as his breathing was concerned, which is what we're talking about partly in Roman, uh, in Genesis six, my spirit, the animating force in man and beast, shall not always abide in man. If you say, did Christ, what happened when Christ died? Then all I would say, and reverently, I trust, eh eh, did he stop breathing? And my answer, if you ask me what, uh, do you see, I would say yes, he stopped breathing. That's what death means. He saw no corruption. If I stop breathing today, my flesh would start corrupting forthwith. But he, uh, uh, being the Son of God, untainted by sin, he saw no corruption. Not even in the grave. And God raised him from the dead. Mm-hmm. Acts chapter two, he saw no corruption. Mm-hmm. But, uh, uh, ladies and gentlemen, uh, you'll not believe what I say just simply because I say it. Um, I merely put some ideas into the pool of your thinking for you to examine them and think about them and ask, uh, people, uh, more reliable than I am for their opinion and so forth and so on. We are to think. And so long as we do it reverently, then, of course, we are told we have to love the Lord our God with all our... Hearts, minds, and souls. Pum? Hearts, minds, and souls. Yeah, heart, mind, soul, and strength. And to love him with all our hearts, yes. But part of our devotion to God is loving him with our Minds. Minds. God wants us to think, you know. Gave us brains anyway. Wants us to think. It's part of our love for God. So we are in your hands, as usual. That's it. Someone just wants to, to pray. Father, I thank you that we can come here in a, a safe and, and open environment, Father, where we can study your word without the fear of, um, persecution, Father. Father, I thank you for, um, for your word, Father, and the wisdom that, that you, that you make known to us through it, Father. I thank you for your servant, Father, Mr. Gooding, Father, and, and thank you that he has given up his time to to help expound your word to us, Father. I pray that as we leave here this evening, that that the things that we will discussed and and thought about, Father, that that we will continue to think on those things, Father, and that that we will dwell continually on on your word, Father. Father, that, um, just as we go forth into a new week, Father, that you will, um, just be with us, Father, and that, that, that we will continue to think upon your things, Lord. Father, I praise things in your name. Amen. Amen. Mm-hmm. Well, thank you very much for coming.