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Good morning, my dear brethren, and may the grace of the Lord Jesus be with you indeed. Today we have in this session some unfinished business to attend to. Last night I tried, inefficiently, I fear, to show the connection of thought between Judges four and five, Psalm sixty eight, and Ephesians chapter four. But of course, that left many questions unanswered, particularly about the phraseology of Ephesians four, over which good Christian men and women sometimes disagree. And then questions about the relation of those three parts of scripture together. So I suggested last night that we use this session for a question time, but not only a question time. Let's use it as an open discussion so that we may help each other and build up ourselves i- in the body of Christ. I suggest that for this purpose we start at the end, that is to say, uh, by consideration of Ephesians chapter four. We have various questions there that we ought to discuss. For instance, when it says that he descended, eh, into the lower parts of the earth, Ephesians four nine. What does that mean? People have disagreed on the exact meaning to be, uh, given to those words. What does it also mean when it says that he ascended on high and led captivity captive? How should we translate that ancient phrase, and what does it mean anyway? And what are these gifts that Christ has given? Why does it say here, quoting Psalm sixty eight, that Christ has given these gifts, when Psalm sixty eight, from which it quotes, says that he received gifts from men? So then, when we have considered some of these questions, we could ask the larger question about Ephesians four: Where lies the battle, if there is any battle? What is the point of our being told that Christ has ascended on high that he might fill all things? What is the nature of the opposition then? So we could start our open discussion, perhaps with Ephesians four. That could lead us then back into the Old Testament, uh, to Judges four and five, and then to Psalm sixty eight. But now, for the moment, I'm all ears for the open discussion to help one another determine the meaning of Ephesians four. Let's begin by reading the passage again. Ephesians four verse one: I therefore, the prisoner in the Lord, beseech you to walk worthily of the calling wherewith you were called, with all lowliness and meekness, with long suffering for bearing one another in love, giving diligence to keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one spirit, even as also you were called in one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, and one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. But unto each one of us was the grace given according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he says, when he ascended on high, he led captivity captive and gave gifts unto men. Now this he ascended, what is it but that he also descended into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things. He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints unto their work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ, till we all attain unto the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a full-grown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, that we may be no longer children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the sleight of men in craftiness after the wiles of error, but speaking truth in love, may grow up in all things unto him which is the head, even Christ, from whom all the body, fitly framed and knit together through that which every joint supplieth, according to the working in due measure of each several part, maketh increase of the body unto the building up of itself in love. This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you no longer walk as the Gentiles also walk in the vanity of their mind. So God give us good understanding as we search together his word this morning. So let's begin our discussion, shall we? And to start the ball rolling, may I ask what you understand when the verse says, verse nine, he asc- he that ascended, what is it but that he also descended into the lower parts of the earth? Gentlemen, what does that mean? May I, may I say, uh, at this moment, I'd just like to say something, if I may, that we are very interested in the younger men contributing at this very moment. Oh, very good. So am I. To encourage them not to feel intimidated or anything, but to just come forth with what their thoughts are. Good stuff. On this matter. Amen. How young? Younger than you, that's. Would there be basically two different views on this passage? One, the possibility of his being descended to the grave, the lower parts of the earth, um, or his simply being descended from heaven, like Philippians chapter two? He says, to the earth. There seems to be a mirror of him going down and also going back up. Um, I don't know if there are any other views to the issue than those two, what it means to descend. Yes? I used to be involved in the apostolic Pentecostal churches, and they discipled me to believe that when he descended, he went into... Marcus, could you speak up? I can't hear you. When I used to be involved in the Apostolic Church, they used the Pentecostal, they used to teach me that it was Christ descending from earth into hell, and even they would differ whether he was there to set people free by preaching the gospel, or if he was there just to proclaim victory. But I, I think that it's a, right, I no longer hold to any of those views, obviously, but what I noticed is that it seems to be a quote from Proverbs thirty three. Oh, that's interesting. Would you care to read it, sir? Proverbs thirty three. Thir- Ten to thirty? thirty verse three. And it's in context with, uh... God's God's attributes. attributes. Where it says, starting in... Verse four. Who has ascended into heaven or descended? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name that you know? Yes. An interesting quote indeed, isn't it? It, as you say, describing the attributes of the Holy One. Uh, i- i- is that how you take it? And uh, God is here, uh, spoken of, ascended up into heaven and descended, eh, would then imply God's omnipresence everywhere, throughout the whole universe, is that? In one sense, but I also think in the passage of Ephesians four, it refers to his descension from heaven to earth. To earth. That's the way I take it. Yes. In other words, it is a reference in Ephesians four to Christ and his incarnation, his descent from heaven and coming to earth and being born of a virgin. Yes, is that how you take it? Because of the fact, because of the way, I think lower lower parts of the earth is also quoted in different sections in the Old Testament. Is indeed. And Psalm one thirty nine, it refers to the womb. That would be worth reading, sir, if you would again, if you don't mind the hard work. What did you say that was? Psalm 139. Verse 15. Psalm 139. My frame was not hid from you and I was made in secret and skillfully wrought in the lower parts of the earth. Yes. Well, that seems clear, doesn't it? I don't think anybody could dispute that, that here the term the lower parts of the earth doesn't mean, uh, paradise or Sheol or anywhere like that. He's talking about his conception and growth in his mother's. Yes. Uh, I somehow have a hand up. I can't see whether you are a young man or an old man, funny. I can't see who you are at all, in fact. For purposes of further clarification, Henry said he had to be younger than me, that's thirty five. Brother Gooding, um, with with some of these passages, the only, the only thing that I've had a very difficult time to reconcile, if, uh, indeed the Lord Jesus descended into the lower parts of the earth, my brother mentioned no one can dispute that the the terminology uses lower parts of the earth is obviously coming to earth, but because of Psalm sixteen, when we read it, we can just go there. We have to play by the rules of of, uh, observation, and it reads this in verse nine and ten. excuse me, verse, yes, verse nine. Therefore my heart is glad and my glory rejoices. My flesh also shall rest in hope, for thou will not leave, and that's the word I want to emphasize, thou will not leave my soul in, and I, I don't have my, my Old Testament text, but I believe it says, is it, is it, uh, Sheol? Sheol is. Right, okay. Neither wilt thou suffer thy holy one to see corruption. And my point is, if indeed the word there is leave, that means he had to have been there, wherever he was. Mm-hmm. Okay, so there is a, there is a, the Lord with the hope, uh, a certain hope, a certain hope that wherever his soul is, it will not be left there, meaning it had to have been there to be potentially left. Yes. Now, of course, I'm not saying it was potentially going to be left. I'm just simply saying that there's a word there, leave. Mm-hmm. Oh, uh, very good. And the same thing is true of the body, isn't it? Thou wilt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Right. That presumably refers to his body. Right, so as, so we can have these, these, uh, two aspects, yes. Mm-hmm. He descended to the lower parts of the earth, but here, if this indeed is a Messianic song, which I believe that a lot of us agree that that's the case, Mm-hmm. obviously his soul went to Sheol, and of course, you know, we look at, uh, Luke sixteen and some brothers take that, uh, you know, interpretation, but the reality is, is that according to this passage, indeed, he was there. Mm-hmm. So, uh, this is to equate Sheol with the Greek word Hades, yes. Um, interesting, uh, observations. It is always good, isn't it, in these matters to read widely in scripture and to define one's terms. Very good. Uh, somebody got a comment. Now we have two views in front of us. One, that the lower parts of the earth means simply earth is lower than heaven, so to speak. Like I might say, uh, the city of London, meaning the city which is London. The lower parts of the earth means the lower parts that are the earth. Or lower parts than the earth, which of course the Greek doesn't really say, but implied there in lower parts than the earth, because here is evidence that our Lord's body was in the grave, not allowed to see corruption, but that is he said to the dying thief, and I think you would, uh, uh, agree with that, wouldn't you? On your view. Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. It is the view of some people, and has been, that in those days, the, the Sheol, the unseen world, Hades, um, was in two divisions. And there was the, uh, Hades of the wicked, like the man, the rich man in Luke sixteen, and, uh, the Hades, the unseen other division, which was paradise. And, uh, so our Lord went to paradise division, and, uh, the dying thief went with him there. Is that your understanding, uh, sir? Yes, sir. Yeah, good. Now there are hands up everywhere. He's a very questionable young man, but still. Brother Gooding, if he's thirty five, I'm twenty seven. Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, that's how it is. Um, I'm not sure whether Matthew twelve verse forty clarifies or confuses the issue, but it's where the Lord Jesus, uh, is talking about the sign of Jonah, if you will, and he says that, uh, the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Mm-hmm. In the heart of the earth. In the heart of the earth. Yes. And you would, if if that is relative, uh, uh, is is, uh, relative to what we're talking about, the heart of the earth, you would say, was where? I'm not sure. Um, I'm not sure. Greenwood. Greenwood. I see. Yes, very good. Greenwood is the lost garden. It's not the heart of the earth. Well, now, uh, uh, having had the two views, um, who would like to say what, in their opinion, settles the matter for them? Let's hear the young men again, if we may. Amen. Why would it have to be either or, since both are true according to scripture? Oh, that's a very good point, yes. Why would you need to choose between the either or? It means, uh, not only that he came down from heaven, that is a fact anyway, was born of a virgin, that is a fact anyway, but he also died, that is a fact, fundamental fact, and that he went to paradise, yes? Wherever paradise is or was. Mm-hmm. So is that a question for saying it doesn't really matter how you interpret the verse. Some, I don't know whether the man is stretching or has put his hand up. Uh, there's a man here, sort of somewhere between a white shirt and a white shirt, yes? You, sir. I was just looking at Acts, uh, chapter two verse twenty seven where we have, um, a recapping of Psalm sixteen verse ten where we have, um, Peter looking at it and giving his interpretation on it. Um, first starting with verse twenty seven. Actually, starting with verse twenty five. David speaking concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he's on my right hand, that I should not be moved. Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad. Moreover, also my flesh shall rest in hope, because I will not leave my soul in hell, neither will thou suffer thine holy one to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life, thou shalt make me full of joy with my countenance. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day. Therefore, being a prophet and knowing that God has sworn with an oath to him, the fruit of his loins according to the flesh would raise up Christ to sit on his throne. He seeing this before, spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh can seek corruption. Mm. So I would say with interpretation that there definitely was, it wasn't just the grave. His soul, yes, and yes. Uh, you'll allow me, of course, won't you, just to repeat what everybody knows, that that translation hell is unfortunate. The word is Hades and simply means the unseen world. Yes. That's not, yes, wait a moment. Uh, brother, keeping in mind the story in uh, Judges four, when a Barrett descended, it it was to do battle. Mm-hmm. So that might be more in keeping with the picture of uh, coming to the virgin's womb to do battle here on earth. Mm-hmm. Well, yes, so we ought really to move on, if we may, because this is a preliminary question, isn't it? What does it mean he descended into the lower parts of the earth? Uh, uh, uh, when he ascended on high, the contrary motion, he led captivity captive and gave gifts to men. Could I therefore move on and ask you to tell me what you understand by this phrase? When he ascended, he led captivity captive and gave gifts to men. What does that mean? The young man who get the opportunity, so there's a man over here, I think. The context of when we use the, uh, the New Testament, look how the Apostle Paul quoted the Old Testament. I think it's important that we stay in the passage that he was quoting from first and make sure we understand it. When you look at Psalm sixty eight, where the quotation comes from, it really describes the victory of the Lord sign- standing up on the mount. Um, oftentimes Mount Zion or Sinai is compared to the mountains of the nations around, and you see the victory of the Lord ascending on high, and the the mountain of the Lord being established above the other mountains, and sort of victory in battle. Where, if I may ask, where is this quotation? Just Psalm 68. Psalm 68. I see, yes. Psalm sixty eight, the previous verse, it says, um, for example, verse sixteen, why do you fume with envy, O mountains of many feet? This is the mountain which God desires to dwell on. It reminds us of Psalms chapter two. which says there's this envy of the nations, not that we have to go there. Um, yes, the Lord will dwell in it forever. God's made his choice. This is the mountain he's going to dwell on. The other mountains need not be envious nor seek to rebel against God. Verse seventeen, the chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of thousands. The Lord is among them, as in Sinai in the holy place. You have ascended on high. You have led captivity captive. You have received gifts among men, even from the rebellious. So here, these ones that were seeking to rebel against the Lord's exaltation, the mountain of his choice, are now having to give gifts. Remember Psalms chapter two where it said that they wanted to break their bands asunder from the Lord's chosen king of Zion and says, kiss the sun, um, you know, lest he be angry with you. So it's a picture of the Lord becoming victorious, number one, and the subduing of all those that would rebel against him to the Lord Jesus Christ or to God's chosen one. So I think that's the context, the passage. We need to carry that back into Ephesians chapter four and say, what is it about that that the Apostle Paul wants to use to illustrate his comment of, of gifts being given to believers today by Christ. Mm, that's right. Yes, that it, it, it depicts Christ's victory. Yes, that seems to me to be very clear. Uh, uh, but now concentrating on Ephesians four, Christ ascending on high, led captivity captive. Any other views on this? Yes, there's an old, a young man, so I, he has to take, by the orders of the command, he has to take prison, yes? I cannot help when, when you read this portion of scripture to take us back to what God was doing with his people in Israel. When I see this passage in, in Ephesians four, it talks about leaving captivity captive and giving gifts unto all men. We first need to consider the fact that when the Holy Spirit descended, baptized the body of Christ, God freely gave gifts. And these gifts were used for what? To build the body of Christ in which God himself dwells within. When we go back to the book of Exodus, the same idea is being used here. There is a captivity captive, there is a people of Israel. They're enslaved, they're in bondage. They are led out into the promised land, and in doing so, God speaks to Moses, and what does he say? We can turn to Exodus chapter twelve, uh, Exodus chapter twelve, verse thirty five. He gives him a promise, tells him exactly how it will work out. In Exodus chapter twelve, verse 35, and the children of Israel did according to the word of Moses, which he did receive from God, and they borrowed of the Egyptians jewels of silver, jewels of gold and raiment. In other passages, it's articles of, of jewels and gold and, and uh, and so forth. And what did they do with these pieces of uh, articles? What they did is they began to give them towards the tabernacle in which they built for uh, the dwelling of God himself, and in chapter thirty five of Exodus, indeed that that was the case, that God began to dwell in the tabernacle. And so I can see the flow in Ephesians chapter four concerning the body of Christ, the giving of gifts, the dwelling of the Holy Spirit, in the same context as I see with the, uh, the people of God as Israel, the deliverance, the building of the tabernacle, the gifts being given, and the dwelling of God. Thank you very much. Uh, from that, I, I, I, I gather, tell me if I'm wrong, uh, two ideas that, uh, on the analogy of the redemption from Egypt, the Israelites spoiled the Egyptians. That is to say, they took their gold, silver, and, uh, raiments and so forth. So they got a lot of material from the Egyptians. At the same time, the Israelites who had been captive in Egypt were now led out by Moses, do you see? And, uh, uh, so it's, on your view, I think it's both the material they got, the riches which they then devoted to building the tabernacle, and but also the people that had once been captive and were now set free. The, uh, phrase in in both in Judges and now here and in the Psalm is that he led captivity captive. Um, people like might like to say now, uh, what they take that exact phrase to mean. He led a lot of captives prisoner, or that, uh, he led a multitude of captives and then set them free? Or what do you say? Anybody else has a view? I have, there's a good man here in a, in a, in a black or blue shirt and white hair, and he got his hand up a long time ago, and he's, uh, uh, he's not over seventy, or if he is, he's not much over. And if I don't allow him a chance, the United States government will have me in for discrimination. You- you'll see. So, sir? Well, I just wanted to make observation on the fact that when the Lord, um, when the Lord came down from heaven and became human on the earth, um, truly Bible scholars has, has, uh, spoke about, you know, that being part of, uh, being lower than the heavens, descending on earth. But in, uh, some of the passages that were read earlier, Psalm sixteen, and what have you, concerning the grave is, um, the Lord was still a part of the Holy Trinity of God, but to conquer the grave, meaning the separation. The separation is the separation that Adam and Eve suffered in the Garden of Eden when they became part of sin, disobedience. The separation from the Spirit of God, meaning, uh, we are born into sin, we are separated, we are dead to the Spirit of God, although we're still alive. And man's, in our life, our separation is when we die because of sin, we are taking aw- we are taken away from society and put into a grave. In other words, we no longer dwell with society, we are separated forever, so to speak, uh, as a human being living amongst the living. But Christ, to fulfill the completion of that, as it's talking about in those scriptures, is that he not only came down to earth, but he wanted to conquer the grave. And to conquer the grave, he, through his power or through obedience, separated himself from God to conquer the grave. And that's, uh, when you read in the gospel of the Lord crying out on the cross, Father, why hast thou forsaken me? That is the part of the separation that Christ himself never had witnessed eternity past to that present. But to be conqueror over sin, he had to go into the grave and defeat the enemy of sin, to make the completion of glory and to be victorious over the The grave. of sin. Thank you so very much, sir. Well, now we must, for time's sake, move on, uh, and I pick up the comment that someone was making. Uh, we have to come back on these points, whatever we, how exactly we translate them or interpret them, we have to come back to their part in the flow of the argument in Ephesians four. So this final phrase, he led captivity captive and gave gifts to men. Anybody here hold strong views on what these gifts are or were, and where the Lord got them from? Ah. It seems to me like missing verse seven. it says he's only given us grace given according to the Christ's gift. You know, the gift is the grace of God. So the gift is the grace of God that is given to each one of us, and, uh, whereas all members of the body are important, uh, g- grace, this gift of grace is given in different colors and different proportions, so to speak, to different ones, yes? Any further explicit indication in these verses to who the gifts are. So, are you gone? Yes, I think you are, but I can't see you. Um, it seems like the context of there, when it gets further on, it's when you're talking about, uh, spiritual gifts, gifts of the Spirit, when it talks about, uh, pastors and el- uh, teachers and things like that. So then, I think that's connected with the, when the Lord talks about giving the Holy Spirit, that he said he couldn't give the Holy Spirit until he left them. That's right, yes. So it connects it with the, when he ascends, then he can give the gifts that are associated with the Holy Spirit to men. Yes. Am I, uh, right in thinking that according to you, the gifts, at least in, uh, uh, uh, verse eleven, carry on the thought through, the gifts are people. Would you agree to that sort of crude, simplistic statement? The gifts are... Amen. Pardon? Amen. Oh, amen. Oh, that's a good... He's moderately young. Uh, uh, do you see, um, I think that is important. Sometimes when we think of gifts, we think of the, uh, function, a gift of teaching, the gift of evangelist, or something like this, evangelism, uh, do you see? But sometimes we're thinking of the people. It may be that in the earlier verse, uh, do you see, the is given, uh, grace is given according to the gift of Christ, is verse seven, It's the grace that is given to different people. But in verse eleven, it's the people that are given to the church. Yes? And everybody agree? He gave some, that is apostles. These are now the gifts he gave. Um, and uh, apostles, uh, uh, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. These are the gifts, the- these are the people he gave. I'd brief- like to brief, uh, briefly ask and have a brief answer, if I could, where did he get them from? Are these some of the captives he took out of the physical grave or from paradise? No. No? Where did he get them from then? Pardon? Father. Well, the father, yes, but where did he find these folks around? Well, from spiritual death. He got them from spiritual death, yes. From the enemies of God. From the enemies of God, alive or dead? Alive would be more useful. Yeah, he, yes, he, yes, they were living enemies, weren't they? This was not the question of resurrecting some souls that were in paradise, and when the Lord arose, he to conducted this multitude of people that had, were righteous dead, but had been captive in paradise in Hades, and then conducting them to heaven. He's talking about enemies, real live enemies, like the man who wrote this epistle, Saul of Tarsus, bitter enemy of Christ. You'll say, and our Lord defeated him, brought him to his knees, and then, if you please, gave him to the church. So, does that make sense to anybody? Yes? Yeah, because you see, gentlemen, if that is part of the truth anyway, and Christ did it then, he might be doing it now. Might be having his eyes on some of us here present, to conquer us and give us as gifts to the church. One would say it with bated breath, but it is a s- wonderful thing, isn't it, to think that Christ has given you to the church. And since we all were enemies according to scripture, and he died that by his death we might be reconciled to God, now in being reconciled, he gives us to the church. Does that make sense, gentlemen, of the logic of the passage? Amen, yes. Good. Hello, there's someone there. I have a question, and to go back to the question of if Christ have to go to hell to finish his work for us? Or if he had to go If Christ to finish his work or his, you know. Yes, uh, uh, thank you very much for the question. Yes, um, uh, so long as I repeat, we remember that the term Hades, in English hell, but is merely the unseen world. Christ did not go to any place of torture. But the gospel is that Christ died for our sins. And if you ask what that death implied, it was nothing less than, or it included more, but it wasn't certainly less than physical death, because part of the gospel is that Christ was buried. It's not merely that Christ died for our sins, but that he was buried is an integral part of the gospel, because there can be no resurrection without a burial, can there? So, yes, in that sense, he had to die and was buried. That is part of the gospel. So long as we remember, there was no, for him, no torture involved. His body was not allowed even to begin to corrupt, and his, uh, soul was, as he said to the dying thief, in paradise. Yes? Well, now then, uh, let's, uh, come then, shall we, to the question that these gifts that the risen Christ has given to the church, for what purpose are they ac- as you understand it? One point of clarification. Yeah. When you were mentioning the gifts, I wasn't clear whether you said that he had given some, in other words, some saved individuals as gifts to the church, or whether every individual saved was given as a gift to the church. Oh, I see what you mean. I believe everybody has a gift. Yes. And grace was given to each one of us. I think here, by the terms that the Paul uses, as you'll see, he is now thinking of per people who are charged with special responsibility. He names them as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. Now, that doesn't include every gift, as we say, in the body. He is in particular thinking of these gifts, uh, you'll see, eh, for in their function, equipping of the body, yes? Right. I- it does, is that somewhere near the true, sir? That, that's good. Yes. Because I- Answer the question, though. I am also young. No, wait, I don't think it answered the question Yeah. to whether every individual regenerate believer can see himself as one gifted by grace from Christ personally, also given as a gift to the church. Oh, well, sir, yes, yes, uh, to every one of us is given grace. There's only one body, but to each of us given grace, do you see? So, one, we all have a function in the body. And even the weakest gift, uh, you mustn't say, I don't need you. We need everyone. Secondly, the weakest gift needn't get an inferiority complex, because God has put the members in the body even as it pleased him. So I don't have to be a Billy Graham in order to please God. Uh, uh, God made me in my humble station, uh, so that I could please him. That pleases God that I should be the, the, the gift I am. And even Billy Graham can't do more than that, than please God, you know. Can he now? So that, uh, in that sense, we're equal. On the other hand, uh, while all our gifts and are gifts to the body in that sense, because God puts them in the body, eh, there are certain gifts of which Paul will also, will say elsewhere, are all apostles? No. Are all prophets? No. Are all evangelists? No. These are special gifts, so that the evangelist, for instance, is vastly important, isn't he, for getting folks converted and by the Holy Spirit put into the body. Amen. Yes, that is important, and we do need, therefore, the pastors and teachers. Uh, do see, we do need shepherds. There is a crying need round this world, in my observation, for shepherds. Wow. But there were hands up here somewhere. Ye- ye- yes, sir, here, if I may. From an old man. Yes, an old man, yes. I see one thing here, at the end of verse eight. it says, he gave gifts unto men. Mm-hmm. Now I connect that with Romans twelve. Mm-hmm. where he speaks of the ministry, minister, exert through exhortation, he that giveth, let it do its simplicity, and all, all those verses. Mm-hmm. And the persons themselves in verse eleven. Mm-hmm. That, is this right? There's two different things here. He gave gifts to men, but in verse eleven, the men are the gifts. Mm-hmm. I got that clear? Yes, sir, that's a very helpful distinction. Yes. Very good indeed. Yes, the white shirt again. Just, just to clarify, uh, Brother Fred asked that question, and I'd like to just go a little bit further more about the Lord Jesus descending into the lower parts of, uh, the earth. Uh, just to consider Matthew chapter twenty seven verse fifty to fifty three, speaking of these individuals, these many bodies, saints who slept arose, they came from an open grave and came out of the graves after his resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared unto many. I would assume that he's going back to captivity captive, that perhaps these were the Old Testament saints, perhaps. Yes, well, that's an interesting suggestion, isn't it? It is, the point is made, they came out of their graves after his resurrection. Mm, he was the first fruits, in other words. They came out of the grave after his resurrection and appeared in the si- in the city to many. It is not said where after that they went to, of course. We don't read of their ascension, do we? And so forth. But an interesting observation. Here, sir? Where is paradise, and who are the occupants, and what is the nature of the paradise? Oh. Let's, um, hear now, uh, uh, uh, uh, those of you who are knowledgeable on these things. The question is, where is paradise? And who are the occupants? What is the nature of it? And what is the nature of it, yes. Is someone here got a suggestion? I could never say where paradise is, but when we look at what the scripture says, assuming that the Lord Jesus Christ wasn't making up something fake when he gave the parable, Luke sixteen, um, there was a place in which people went after death, prior to Christ's death on the cross, righteous and unrighteous, some to Abraham's bosom, some to torment. But then the Apostle Paul says, after, um, he comes into his ministry, to be absent from the body, to be present with the Lord. Those seem to be two very distinct and diff- differences. Mm-hmm. Um, those before the cross, if Christ was speaking about something literal, absent from the body meant to be in Abraham's bosom. Well, Paul said after the cross, absent from the body means to be present with the Lord, so one assumes that there was a change Mm-hmm. of some sort. Yes. Where paradise was, um, does the Lord even want us to focus on the where of paradise? You know, what good would that do for us, especially after the cross and all that's happened? Yes. Um, I can tell you where it will be. Um, you'll see the Revelation chapter, uh, three— I'm sorry, cha- the chapter two. verse seven: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches, to him who overcomes, to him will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God. Um, the word paradise in Greek is a translation of a Persian word that means a pleasure park. In the Greek translation of the Old Testament, the Septuagint made about two hundred and BC, the Garden of Eden is translated in the Greek as Paradesos, paradise. And there in that garden, according to Genesis, was the tree of life. Now, in talking to the church, our Lord holds out the promise, to him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God. That can no longer mean the Garden of Eden, can it? But the phrase the pre- uh, the is in the paradise of God seems to me to be a description pointing us to the account in the end of the revelation, to the great city, the New Jerusalem, and its river, and the tree of life by the banks of the river. So that puts it way out into eternity, yes? But I think now, brothers, we should go on, uh, if you would tell me as briefly as you ma- can, um, all this business of the gifts given, uh, taking captive, uh, captivity or a multitude of captives or whatever that Christ has done, and on his ascension he's given these gifts. What is it for, according to, uh, Ephesians four? And is there any hint in this passage of a battle? I ask that question simply because we were led to Ephesians four by our consideration of Judges four and five. There was a very big battle. And when Barak was told to rise and lead out captivity captive, it was a very big battle. So here, any battle? You, sir. I would say so the, in verse twelve it says for the perfecting or the equipping, so obviously the reason for doing that. And then down below, he gets into some of the issues involved. For instance, in verse fourteen, you henceforth be not children tossed to and fro, and so on, and uh, so there's obviously some kind of battle going on. Yes. The great move, therefore, the great object is to the growth of the body of Christ until we all attain unto the unity of the faith. Yes? And there are forces that are engaged to prevent that if they can. Yes? Everybody agreed? Good. Tell me what is the unity of the faith? Till we all come. Does it not say, till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, which suggests that some of them, some of us haven't got there yet. What is the unity of the faith? Hello there. Till we finally grow up, brother. Till we finally grow up. That's what it says in the latter, uh, a few verses thereafter. It's when we come into the likeness of Christ, because the unity of faith, as as we we presently can observe that hardly any of us agree on everything. We disagree on many things, and I really believe that, although we're unified by the Spirit of God, to some degree we're not united, uh, in this portion, uh, until we are united, it says. Yes, according to has to be a sense of perfection, a sense of completeness that the work is actually done. According to you, therefore, there will be a time when all believers believe exactly the same thing. I believe so, yes. Good. It's over there in the corner somewhere. I want to just, using the imagery of Joshua, say that in this chapter there are two things when it comes to unity. There's the unity of the spirit, which you find in chapter four and, uh, verse three, which we are to endeavor to. That is to be kept now. That has already been established, we're to guard it. While, while as the unity of the faith is something that is to be obtained. So in the imagery of Joshua, they were brought into something established, but then there was something else with the inheritance that had to be maintained or up- obtained and Yeah. Let me ask you, sir, uh, if I may, what do you understand by the word unity? Is it union, or is it oneness? What do I mean by that? Well, to look at the first, uh, verses of the chapter, keeping the whatever unity means of the spirit in the bond of peace, because in actual fact, there's only one body. In actual fact, there is only one spirit. There is only one hope. There's only one Lord. There's only one faith. Only one baptism, one God and Father of all. I have to confess, I, it feels to me that what is at stake here, what is being stated, is not so much a union, but the sheer fact that there's only one of these things. There is only one body. Don't you go and make two, and so forth, and so on. It is, strictly speaking, the oneness, so to speak, that we are called to keep, and therefore to grow up, as the fin- the later verses, uh, into the, uh, uh, uh, unity of the faith, the tale to the oneness of the faith. There is only one faith, that is a matter of fact. There's only one thing that should be believed, if you can call it the whole gamut of Christian doctrine. My perception of it is very limited. I've got to go on growing, and all of us have got to on growing and trying to learn and doing our best and helping each other and doing it in a spirit of meekness and not rivalry, so that we come at last, this is the goal that shall be reached in glory, we all believe, uh, exactly the same, the whole of the one faith. Is that your view, sir? Yes. He- hello, there's another hand up there. Yes, um, one thing I, I once heard and I thought made a lot of sense in this idea of going to reaching that unity is that it seems to me that in our world today, there's so many different distractions, things that we decide are, are important to us that, you know, whether it's some minor thing that that's what tends to divide all the churches up. There's something that they said is really important, and they've held to that, but not necessarily looking at making Christ the preeminent one. And the more that we look at Christ, the more we find that those things that we may have thought were really important are so much, comparatively, so much less important compared to the splendor and majesty of the Lord Jesus Christ. I mean, like, for instance, this entire room is full of people of all different types of backgrounds, but we are coming here to be centered around the person of Christ. The same thing is that someday everyone is going to, everyone that is a believer will see Christ, and at that point we will be like him, and we will find that the things that maybe we used to think were very important that compared to the excellency of the knowledge of Christ are infinitely less. I always like one person did a description of the idea like a wagon wheel. You've got the hub of the wheel, and maybe you're on far ends of the wheel, the end of the spokes. The closer you get to the center, which is Christ, the closer we get to one another as well. There's that a, a, a very good analogy, sir. I think the only rider I would put to that is this, that, um, uh, some things in the faith are fundamental. For instance, uh, the deity of Christ and his full humanity are fundamental, without which there is no salvation at all. Yeah, I just like Yes, yes, that's right. You're talking about the other extreme. I don't know your history here, but I do know in my youth there were people around about the place who said that if you didn't use unleavened bread at the Lord's Supper, you weren't fit to be, I don't know, anything at all. Uh, do you see? That was a serious matter over which they were prepared to split the church right, left, and center. It's getting that out of proportion completely, isn't it? But now, because of time is rushing on, I would like to go back to the two historical passages just for a few comments. How does Ju- Judges four and five relate, if at all, to the, uh, passage in Ephesians four? And there, let's draw attention to what, uh, Larry was drawing attention to last night, chapter five, verses one to five, in Deborah's triumphal song. When Deborah came to sing her victory, she put it in the context. Look at verse four: Lord, when thou wentest forth out of Seir, when thou marchest out of the field of Edom, the earth trembled, and the heavens also dropped, yea, the clouds dropped water. The mountains slowed down at the presence of the Lord, even yon, yon Sinai at the presence of the Lord, the God of Israel. This reference to Sinai is to be found both in Judges five and in Psalm sixty eight. And why is that important? And why should Deborah mention it in her triumphal song? Because the mountains originally, uh, trembled and flowed down at the presence of the Lord on Sinai. That was a unique event in the history of the world and in the history of Israel. The revelation of the one true God, made directly and explicitly by the self-revelation of God on Mount Sinai to Israel. Gentlemen, that is an historic fact. This is not a fable. This in itself is the issue that divides humanity to this present time. Is there a God, and has he revealed himself? Or are we shut up merely to the best that human rationality can do. And human rationality can do a great deal, of course. We do not despise it. But the key to the understanding of the universe, and therefore for our life here on it, is here a- a- at its pivot. Is there a God? And has he revealed himself? Is there such a thing as revelation from God? And of course, the Old Testament is proclaiming yes. God has not merely spoken through the evidence of creation around us, as Romans one says, nor merely in the law written on the heart of all human beings by the Creator, as Roman two says, that God has intervened in history to reveal himself. And you'll see Sinai was a tremendous and fundamental self-revelation of God to Israel, to that special nation, Israel, that has been and continues to be a special nation. Now, what happened in Judges five, as Deborah herself shows in verse 8 of chapter five, they chose new gods. Then was war in the gates. Israel, in choosing new gods, lost their grip on the fact of divine revelation and the unique revelation given to them at Mount Sinai. Lost their grip on the uniqueness of God, therefore, and gave way to the modern cult. Uh, you'll see multicultural, that everybody's religion is virtually as good as anybody else's religion. And they chose new gods, and the distinction between the unique God of heaven and his unique revelation was lost in all the whirlpools of the surrounding theories of religion, practice of religion, invented by men. And when that happens, of course, as it is happening in Britain very quickly, I don't know about the States, then the only and sole, sole arbiter that comes between all the many religions is man's reason. The human mind and rationality becomes exalted. Since the Enlightenment, gentlemen, in Europe, but soon came here to America with your founding fathers. In the Enlightenment, the thinkers believed the Bible so far, or most of them did, to be the word of God. But the very big change at the Enlightenment was this, that you no longer accepted it simply like that as the word of God and therefore true. Reason was exalted to be the judge, even of the Bible itself. So you were prepared to accept as much of the Bible as your reason declared to you to be acceptable. That is modernism. Among the philosophers, Kant, of course, was the biggest exponent of modernism. He said when he went outdoors at night and saw the stars, they overwhelmed him. He believed there was a God. He said that to be moral and to follow even his own philosophical ethics, there would need to be a God to see, uh, that fair play was done in the end and in, you know, enforce them. But for the moment, with Kant, you can't know anything about God. And as for the Bible, well, only that much can you accept that your reason approves of. That has been the big battle of modernism all down the years. And of course, it's with us still. It has, in literary circles, been overtaken by postmodernism. Well, there are thinkers, notably French thinkers, that got tired of the tyranny of science and scientists in white coats telling them what they could and should believe. They have developed the theory that there is no ultimate truth. The scientist's view of things, that's their story. We don't have to believe it if we don't want to. The famous French literary critic Derrida, one of the foremost in the postmodern movement, now dead he is, bases his whole literary thit- theory on this. There is no logos in this universe. There is no standard by which we might measure what is truth. No ultimate standard. Of course, it flies in the face of John chapter one and verse one. In the beginning was the... Yes, the Logos. It means, therefore, that there is no revelation. Ultimately, it is destructive of meaning itself. For according to Derrida, you can't have a meaning until something's written down. So even an author doesn't have a meaning that he wants to put on the page. He has to wait until the words come and he puts the thing down on the paper, and then he has to wonder what it means. And he's in no greater position than anybody else to say what it means. You think it means one thing? Well, you hold that. I think it means the direct opposite. You can't say I'm wrong, and I can't say you're wrong. That is postmodernism. It is not approved of by serious philosophers, of course, in philosophical departments, but it is rife in our literary departments. And you should watch your young folks, my dear senior friends, in school literary departments and in university literary departments. For if they're anything like in England, this theory is rife. Take any novel you like. There is no ultimate meaning. To you it means one thing, you hold to that. I hold it means the very opposite. You can't say I'm wrong, I can't say you're wrong. There is no ultimate truth. The same thing goes to values, therefore. There is no criterion of justice, say the postmodernists. All values are s- determined by society. There came a young man to see me a year or two ago. He had been on an evangelistic team. Then he went to Oxford and read politics and a- a- a- and philosophy. When he came to me, he believed nothing. All values, he said, are determined socially. You can't, and one society can't say the other is wrong. Can't claim it is the only right one. It's simply what your own society decides is, is right for you anyway. I said, how about cannibalism, my boy? And he said, well, yes, if they like it that way, it's okay. And we're told we mustn't be, we mustn't be intolerant. We must be tolerant and know everybody their viewpoint. That is the great song of postmodernism. You must be tolerant. You mustn't say anybody's wrong. That would be intolerant. All right. But I want to say. What about Pol Pot? His value system was that he didn't like intellectuals. Pol Pot, this of Cambodia. And anybody that wore spectacles was liable to be a, a intellectual. He didn't like intellectuals. He eliminated a few hundred thousands of them. Shall we say he was wrong? According to postmodernism, you mustn't say he was wrong. Sounds to me he was one of the most intolerant dictators that ever lived. If postmodernism be right, then we must not be intolerant of Pol Pot's intolerance. Intolerance. It sounds and is nonsense. But gentlemen, if your young folks are taught in their English departments in a university or school that there's no one proper interpretation of a poem or a novel, and then they come to you and you try to tell them that the word of God means this. They will say, that's only your view. I hold it means something else, and it's not for you to tell me what I'm supposed to believe. This whole matter of whether there is a Logos, in the beginning was the Logos, whether there is such a thing as ultimate truth, and the whole question of God's revelation to mankind. Nowadays, gentlemen, is a battle to be fought and faced in our educational systems. One other observation, uh, on the Judges thing, and one on the Psalms. Eh, God defeated the northern Canaanites, represented by Sisera. As we lot many times have heard, God had him dispatched through his brain. The key to the operation was Deborah, of course, who was a prophetess and knew God and had the mind of God. It was her knowledge of God and the guidance of God's spirit that led her to command Barak to come down the mountain, which operation would have been suicidal had not it been true, as Deborah said, the Lord has gone out before you. The Lord brought the tempest that reduced the plain to a quagmire and made the chariots of no effect, and the Canaanites were defeated. When we come to Psalm um sixty eight, we shall notice this idea of the procession of God. Look at verse seven. O God, when thou wentest forth before thy people, when thou didst march through the wilderness, the earth trembled, the heavens also dropped at the presence of God, even yon Sinai trembled at the presence of God, the God of Israel. The Psalm is written much later, of course, than Judges. Much later than the original self-revelation of God at Sinai. God's revelation has proceeded, hence our Old Testament, uh, written over some centuries. Hence, of course, finally the coming of Christ, for God who spoke in time past in divers proportions and manners to the people through the prophets, has in these last days spoken unto us in his dear Son. As God moved onward in his self-revelation, notice how Psalm sixty eight, uh, refers to it. Verses seventeen and eighteen: The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands upon thousands. The Lord is among them. But now the next words are almost cryptic in Hebrew. They mean that Sinai is in the sanctuary. Meaning that whereas Sinai was the place of God's great several s- self-revelation to Israel when they came out of Egypt, now God has moved on. And among all the mountains that he could have chosen, he has chosen Zion as his place in Jerusalem. And the temple has been built. The other mountains are told not to be envious or proud. The Lord has chosen Jerusalem, and now the center of God's self-re- self-revelation was to be in the temple at Jerusalem. Sinai, without losing any of its force and authority, is now centered in the sanctuary. We are called upon to believe it, are we not? For when that full revelation of God was given in Jesus Christ our Lord, he didn't come to Mount Sinai, did he? He came to Jerusalem. For that reason, Jerusalem stands unique in the cities of earth. For it was the city of the great king, which our Lord himself came finally claiming to be Zion's king. It was just outside Jerusalem City that God made the profoundest revelation of his character that God Almighty could do, in giving his dear Son to the death of the cross for the sins of humanity. And the risen Lord told his apostles to go throughout the world and preach the gospel, but you notice what he said, didn't you? Luke chapter twenty four, you go and preach the gospel to all nations, but beginning from Jerusalem. The mark of the true gospel, gentlemen, is that it comes from Jerusalem. Well, Jerusalem was lost to the Jews in AD seventy, I know, but the mark of the true gospel is that it began at Jerusalem, outside of whose city's wall the king was crucified and died for our sins and rose again. And a little outside Jerusalem on the Mount of Olives, he ascended into heaven. This is the progress of God's self-revelation in history. Modernism has been at work, even in our theological departments, trying to tell us that these stories are but fables. Some of them made up after the, after the exile to comfort the Jews. Their historicity is basic to our Christian faith. Sinai and then Jerusalem. It was from Olivet's hill that our Lord ascended. Triumphant, ascended far above all things, that he might fill all things. The final note, therefore, in our hearts should not be despair and despondency at the way modernism so nowadays seems to prevail. Thank God, gentlemen, for the absolute certainty that Christ is risen, that he might fill all things, and he's given gifts to each one of his people, and special apostles, hi- uh, uh, and prophets and evangelists and pastors and teachers, that his work shall be complete and his body made ready for his second coming. So we're five minutes over time, but thank you heartily for all your cooperation in the discussion.