Audio restored with Diffio. Diffio processed the original archive recording to reduce noise and produce a cleaner listening version; the original stays available.
Speech quality score (model-estimated, SCOREQ): before 3.97 → restored 4.44
Use the player's Original switch to compare.How Diffio restores old speech recordings
I was wondering, just on this last portion that we've done, um, practically speaking with... speaking to people who would fall into that category of believing something true about God, and yet either completely rejecting Jesus or believing many false things about him. How do we go about trying to show them the truth? I'm thinking especially as, I mean, you mentioned, um, of course, the Jews are primarily in view here, but Christians, but it also strikes me that Muslims would fit into that category, having some, holding on very firmly to their monotheism, and yet they won't have it by any means that Jesus is the Son of God or in any way, any special relation, anything but a great prophet.
Mm. Is, and is, is Saul, I guess it strikes me, is Saul something of a... is there something there that would show us to somehow just, as best we can, to reveal Christ to them and what ways we're given to do that, and let that speak for itself? Or maybe you can Mm. offer something there. Yeah, a very important question and a right, uh, uh, uh, balance to my extreme statements, you see. But, um, it is important to notice, isn't it, that, uh, this pat- chapter John, in John chapter twelve, in the second half, is talking about Christ's contemporaries.
It isn't necessarily talking about all the Jews that ever have been since then. Do you see? That blindness in part has happened to Israel, yes, that is tr- true, but there is a present remnant, says Paul. John is talking about the contemporaries that had heard Christ speak and knew what he said and heard his claims and rejected him for the reasons that are listed, do you see? A lot of Jews hadn't got a clue about what Jesus said or taught. They've been taught all sorts of funny things by their rabbis.
They don't have a clue as to what Jesus taught. As for Muslims, they also, uh, uh, thousands of them, just accepted what the, uh, mullahs have told them. They haven't read the New Testament. They don't know really what Jesus said or taught. Do you see? They hang on to what they have heard. Do you see? That's another story. Uh... As for multitudes of men and women around this world, there are multitudes of them that so far have never heard the name of Jesus anyway.
And Christ is on record in John's own gospel, it is, of saying that people will never be condemned for not believing wasn't what wasn't there to be believed. Yeah? So how do we go about, uh, helping people like Jews who are, are, uh, again the, uh, uh, faith? And how do you go about helping Muslims who have their, uh, uh, traditional notions about Jesus? If you start with Muslims, for my own part, I would tend not to talk to them about the deity of Christ.
Because if you say to them that Jesus is the Son of God and you must believe this, do you see? They have been taught by their mothers that Jesus being the Son of God, Christians believe that God came and had sexual relationships with Mary, and the result of it was born a child that is called the Son of God, and they find that so hideously, hideous morally, that they think that Christians are a disgusting crowd. We know that isn't what it means anyway, but that's what they think. If you try to tell them that Jesus is the Son of God, they think you are perpetuating this, to them, blasphemy.
You see, it is better to talk to them about the person of Jesus and get them to read some things about Jesus, simply because his, the description of Christ in the Gospels and his words show him to be marvelously attractive as distinct from Muhammad, as a character. And getting Muslims to think about what Jesus said and did, and his attitude. You won't find Muhammad saying, come unto me, all you that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Not Muhammad. So getting, uh, the, uh, the Muslims to, to, um, uh, think about Christ as a person.
Then the other thing that could be useful is to raise with them the matter of Jesus's death. If they are serious Muslims, they themselves will raise it anyway. I was in Jordan with David Dodd, uh, at one stage, and his fellow medics invited me to a dinner along with David, and they were prominent medics, specialists, and consultants in various disciplines, and one, uh, famous architect had built buildings all around the world, New York, London, and goodness knows where else.
And very gracious they are, Jordanians are, they're not aggressive Muslims, you see. So they told me after dinner, you see, there's all this de- strife and killing and Christians killing Muslims and Muslims killing the Christians, it's absolute nonsense, you see. We all, why can't we live in peace? We all believe exactly the same thing, they said, you see. So we all believe the same thing, don't we? Except, of course, you say that, uh, uh, Jesus died on the cross. Well, of course he didn't die. You changed the Bible for that, and to make it say that he died, and, uh, he didn't die.
That's what they've been taught. And my reply to that was to say, I see, so we've changed the Bible. I, I, I asked permission to read from the Bible, you see, so I read them from Isaiah fifty three And said, look, um, what I'd like to read you was written, hmm, six hundred years perhaps before uh, uh, Christ was born anyway. So we Christians didn't write it, and we certainly haven't changed it. I read them, Isaiah fifty three, And when I finished, they said, you're going to say that's Jesus, aren't you? Well, I said I will do eventually, but I wasn't going to say it just now.
Because... I said, this is, we didn't write it, we haven't changed it, we the Christians didn't, but this is God telling through Isaiah, six hundred years before Christ was born, what would happen to him. He died. And I said, you know, the Old Testament, they're supposed to believe the Old Testament, you see, uh, had a system of sacrifices. When you sinned, you had to offer a sacrifice. I said, do you really think that the blood of those animals really put away sin?
Well, they didn't think that at all. I said, well, what was all that about then? Were they symbols of something? So, yeah, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, it is helpful sometimes not to try and prove that Jesus is the Son of God, but to get them reading the story about Jesus. He is such an attractive character. And then, of course, to get them reading the gospels about his death and why he died. This in spite of their, uh, uh, thing that Jesus didn't die on the cross.
And as for Jews, I have not a lot of experience with Jews, but I did take some extramural classes in, in Queens at one stage, and some enthusiast brought a Jew along, and I got to know him, and came- he came to dinner several times, poor boy, and he managed to escape Hitler from, uh, Vienna just by the skin of his teeth. And he would constantly say to me, it's you wicked Chri- you Christians who taught the Sunday school children that the wicked Jews, uh, uh, murdered Christ, and this is what has caused the the Holocaust.
It's your fault. You see. I said to him, Otto, my good man, I said, as I uh uh uh uh I would never think of accusing Jews of having murdered Christ. Uh, I said, well, in this sense, I said, who do you think killed Christ? Why did Christ die? Well, why did he, he says. I said, well, I killed Christ. What do you mean you killed Christ? Well, I said, we Christians believe that when Jesus died on the cross, it was because of our sins, so it was my sins he was done for.
I wouldn't accuse you, Otto, of, uh, of crucifying Christ any more than I would accuse myself. I was responsible for his death. He died for me and for my sins. He died for you, Otto, and your sins as well, oh God. You see? That began to get home to him. He told me eventually he could see that there were different kinds of Christians. He said, it's like some Jews are, you know. They profess to be, uh, Jews, they're not really, and some I can see some of these Christians, uh, uh, you're different from some of these Christians. They, they perhaps they're not really Christians or something, says he. Then I said, my dear Otto, my boy, do you pray for the dead?
Yes, he said. Well, I knew they did, of course. I said, what do you pray for the dead for? He said, so that God, uh, you know, it's, he said it's a, it's a nice way of re- re- remembering them, you see. I said, come off it, Otto, you do more than that, don't you, when you pray for the dead? Well, he said, yes, we do really. We pray that God would let them out of the bad place, you know, and bring them to the good place. I said, I don't know, I, I, I don't understand you, Motto, I said. I, I, I, I'm an old gentile, you know.
I, I, I, I've been brought to believe. I don't believe in just any old God. I believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, you know. I said, and the one that led me to believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob was the Jew that you won't have. I said, you tell me of another Jew that has brought millions of Gentiles to believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Well, he couldn't. There is none. And I said, Otto, boy, I don't understand you.
I said, take that beautiful psalm, ah, the Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want. I said, you know how it ends up, Otto? Sorely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I shall dwell in the house of the Lord forever. I said, Otto, I believe that. I'm absolutely sure of going to God's heaven. I said, how is it you're not sure? Don't you believe it? It's your Bible anyway, Otto. Yes. What John is talking about, and then our Lord in his epistle, is Christ's contemporaries, in particular, who though who had done many signs, persisted in their unbelief and then engineered his crucifixion.
You see, the principle that there comes a point when, as our Lord put it, people commit the sin against the Holy Spirit, and with their eyes open, and knowing they are being perverse, they reject the witness of the Holy Spirit. Well, that's another thing. For God doesn't have any extra power beyond that of the Holy Spirit, does he? So that's what, what I mean is.
And I don't, I, I don't think it's a, a wise thing tonight to say to, and you trust Christ tonight, for this is, you know, you mightn't get another chance. Well, that is perfectly true. You might get run down by a bus tomorrow. That is perfectly true. But to say that my spirit shall not always strive with men, and if you don't trust Christ tonight, God's spirit might not strive with you again. Well, that is a thought, isn't it? But it's a complete misinterpretation of the very verse that they're quoting from Genesis chapter six. That should read, my spirit shall not always abide in man.
Why not? Because he rejects the gospel? No, because he is flesh. And what that means, it's twenty past four, I have must, I mustn't start that. What that means is what Genesis is talking about. That man is made of two bits, his flesh and his spirit. And God calls it his spirit. And my spirit shall not always abide in man. Notice the reason why not? Because also he is flesh. Not because he rejects the gospel, but because he is flesh.
Talking about man's constitution. And when men rejected the gospel, God drowned them. He didn't burn them up, you know, like he burnt up Sodom and Gomorrah in Noah's time. He burned them, he he drowned them. And you know what happens when you drown. Not that you do it every day, but if you you you put you put them underwater, you don't have to keep them there very long. But if you put them underwater for five minutes and you bring them out, well, know what's happened now then. Because the body's still there, the flesh is still there.
What's happened now? And then they start to go rotten. That's what Genesis is talking about. My spirit shall not always abide in man, not judge, might plead with man. My spirit shall not always abide in man. Because he is flesh. But I wonder, I mustn't, I should wonder all sorts of funny things. Just one other question, really linking to what you've just been talking about, about, uh, Christendom Mm.
having accused the Jews of killing Christ. There is also the reference in, in Luke's gospel to the words of Christ on the cross, or as he was being crucified. Lord, lay not this sin to their charge because they know not what they do. How do we interpret that? Oh. Well, to be, uh, to be true to Luke's account, and it's Luke that records this. So you tempt me to repeat my exhortations. Wouldn't it be marvelous to be able to get up and expound the details of each story of the four records of the crucifixion in their context.
You see, Luke is concerned with the moral issues involved in the, in the crucifixion. You see, when our Lord said, Father, forgive them, they know not what they do, he was talking of the soldiers that had just nailed his hands and feet to a cross. They certainly didn't know what they were doing. They were just carrying out their orders. If they hadn't have done it, they'd have been executed themselves. So, Father, forgive them. Stephen, when he was being stoned to death, said, lay not this sin to their charge.
He personally didn't hold it against them, what they were doing. And we are allowed to take that view before God. I don't hold this against them, Lord. So please don't lay this charge against them. But to put that in its context, what Luke says, do you see, that seems to me to be very important. Um, our Lord was going on the way to crucifixion and, uh, uh, carrying his cross, and the women came out of Jerusalem, dear souls, and they were moved to tears, rang a hell, poor young man, he's going to be crucified, and he's such a nice young man.
And they were weeping to see. Our Lord said, stop that. You can stop that right now, says he. Don't you weep for me. It's not I that's got the wrong end of this stick, it's you. For the days will come when they will cry to the mountains to fall on them, and which they will congratulate women that never had any children. For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in a dry? If in a society that had more or less stable government and, and moderately decent laws, they are prepared to execute and crucify an innocent man.
What do you suppose will happen if that kind of thing goes on? What will happen in a dried tree? You see, Peter tells us that our Lord, when he suffered, he didn't threaten. Why not? He committed himself to him that judges righteously. Our Lord went to Calvary, not calling down curses on people, but he committed the whole thing to the judge who one day would judge righteously. So says Peter.
Do you see? And because he was content to g- uh pass, uh, hand it over to God to judge righteously, then he was free, uh, himself to bear our sins in his body on the tree, that we might pass away from sin and live unto righteousness. But he w- did it in the confidence that one day God would judge righteously. Then there were two, uh, brigands crucified with him, you see. And one said, you're the Christ, get us down from here.
That typical worldly, you see. If you're the Christ, get us free of the penalty, uh, uh, and the punishment that we have, uh, ourselves brought on ourselves. Then we'll believe in you. But Christ didn't attempt to bring them down. Christ wasn't there just to rescue people from the temporal punishment of their misdeeds, emptying the prisons and say people shouldn't be punished. That's all nonsense. The other criminal, who at first had joined in, then came by gradual stages to repentance, and he rebuked the first chap, and he said, dost thou not, dost not thou fear God?
Why should he? Seeing thou art in the same condemnation, the same condemnation as who? Well, not as the f- uh, his fellow, uh, criminal. Why don't you fear God, seeing you are in the same con- uh, uh, judgment as this man here, in the middle of us? For this man has done nothing amiss. Well, how is that the ground for fearing God then? Well, think, gentlemen, think. If it is the fact that there is a God at all up in heaven, and here is an innocent man that's done nothing wrong and has been crucified by the authorities.
If there's a God at all, there will be a judgment, a final judgment. If in a world where the innocent suffer and very often c- uh, killed and persecuted by violent sinners, there's going to be a judgment. If there's a God at all. And you know what? This second criminal began to wish there was going to be a final judgment. He hadn't done that most of his life. But you see these rotters down here, these priests and other hypocrites and all the rest of them going by here.
The members had put him on the cross anyway. A lot of scoundrels they were themselves. I think he began to hope there would be a final judgment, because if there wasn't, these chavs won. If there's no final judgment, Hitler won, didn't he? You say he shot his brains out. Well, so he did, but he won, got away with murder, millions of them. There's going to be a final judgment, says the second thief. And then he had a spectacular thought. Is Jesus...
Yes, he's the king of the Jews. He will come in his kingdom. There's going to be a life after death. And having heard the Lord pray, Father, forgive them. He ventured to request it, and he didn't say, Lord, forgive my sins. He said what for him was a remarkable thing. Lord, would you let me come into your kingdom? That was a conversion, wasn't it? He hadn't been in anybody's kingdom. He'd been a freeboot or a brigand and a, a, and a political a- anarchist.
Now he's asking the favor of being allowed to come into the kingdom and rule of Christ. That is repentance, you know. Luke's gospel is very heavily concerned at the story of the crucifixion with the moral issues involved in it. Yeah. And then there came a good counselor, you see, and he hadn't been consenting to the whatnot that the others did. And he was a righteous man.
Well, as he was. How do you, do you know that? Because now, at the cross of Christ, he saw that the time had come when he must make his stand. The highest authority in his land as a Jew had sentenced Christ to crucifixion. He hadn't agreed with them, but he'd remained in the shadows. I couldn't do it any longer. He was a just man. He must come and take his side with Christ. And he went and asked permission of Pilate and buried him. How is that for taking a stand against the Sanhedrin? And as for the ordinary five-eighths of a centurion, well, they were big men, weren't they, in their way?
And some of them were very wealthy. One of them had built a synagogue for the Jews out of his own spare cash. They were quite wealthy, and they were the backbone of the Roman army, were centurions. And the man in charge, when he saw that he so cried out, Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit. Well, somebody could do that when the earth was quaking. He said, this is, this man is right. He'd met a lot of religious people, you know, seen a lot of people that die, had this into him, the way he died.
He said, this man is right. Luke. is concerned with the moral issues that are raised by the crucifixion of Christ. Well, at least that's me. You mustn't, well, you won't anyway, so I don't need to say it. I was going to say you mustn't take my word for it, but they're suggestions.
